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If I am a wizard 1/bard 6, can I take Improved Familiar? I have all the prerequisites (ability to acquire a familiar, arcane caster level high enough), but not from the same source.
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In my games, I might not allow it, Here's why.
In your scenario your wizard/bard is a CL1/CL6, and if you are using that class feature (Wizards: Arcane Bond) then I would say NO. As that is only a CL1 in regards to qualifying for the feat.
Find a Bard variant, or archetype that gets a familiar and YES (up to CL6 however, not the full CL7 familiars, as Wizard does not add to your Bard CL.) And there are bard archetypes and variants that do have access to familiars, saving you a level dip too if needed.
If you got a lenient DM you could make a case your Bard's 'casting history' if you will, may qualify you based on the fact that the feat doesn't specifically say you need to have a CL in the class that does grant the familiar to apply.
In my house game, If I did allow it, I would still say it follows the rule for the class that grants it, i.e. it's only as powerful on the chart of a level 1 wizard in this case.
If I am a wizard 1/bard 6, can I take Improved Familiar? I have all the prerequisites (ability to acquire a familiar, arcane caster level high enough), but not from the same source.
I don't see why not.
Shapeshifting Hunter has Prerequisites: Favored enemy class feature, wild shape class feature.
The feat stacks your ranger and druid class levels for favored enemy and wild shape, so I think the intent is clearly that you can gain the feat prerequisites from different classes.
This sets a prescedent that, for example, Adept Champion should not require that the BAB of +5 does not have to come from the same class which grants you Smite evil.
-edit- Note that your caster level is not 7. Your caster level is wizard 1 and bard 6. You could get a Stirge (CL5), but not a Pseudodragon (CL7).
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If I am a wizard 1/bard 6, can I take Improved Familiar? I have all the prerequisites (ability to acquire a familiar, arcane caster level high enough), but not from the same source.I don't see why not.
Shapeshifting Hunter has Prerequisites: Favored enemy class feature, wild shape class feature.
The feat stacks your ranger and druid class levels for favored enemy and wild shape, so I think the intent is clearly that you can gain the feat prerequisites from different classes.
This sets a prescedent that, for example, Adept Champion should not require that the BAB of +5 does not have to come from the same class which grants you Smite evil.
Improved Familiar doesn't have any language that CL's from other sources stack, and one cannot assume they do. I don't think comparing that feat applies here Grick.
Improved Familiar doesn't have any language that CL's from other sources stack, and one cannot assume they do.
I never said anything about them stacking (pre-edit).
Improved Familiar - "Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)."
1) He has the ability to acquire a new familiar (from wizard 1).
2) He has (we assume) a compatible alignment.
3) He has a sufficiently high arcane spellcaster level to acquire a Celestial hawk, Dire rat, Fiendish viper, Small Elemental, or Stirge (from bard CL 6).
The caster levels do not stack, but each prerequisite does not have to come from the same class.
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Improved Familiar doesn't have any language that CL's from other sources stack, and one cannot assume they do.I never said anything about them stacking (pre-edit).
Improved Familiar - "Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)."
1) He has the ability to acquire a new familiar (from wizard 1).
2) He has (we assume) a compatible alignment.
3) He has a sufficiently high arcane spellcaster level to acquire a Celestial hawk, Dire rat, Fiendish viper, Small Elemental, or Stirge (from bard CL 6).The caster levels do not stack, but each prerequisite does not have to come from the same class.
I'd agree with this if Bard was the class to grant the arcane bond.
Otherwise I disagree based on the fact that the class granting it was wizard, and that is only a CL 1 in this case.
And unless he finds a way to add bard to the overall CL of Wizard, or get a familiar via a bard then I'd say it's no dice.
I disagree based on the fact that the class granting it was wizard, and that is only a CL 1 in this case.
What makes you think all feat prerequisites must come from the same source?
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I have to agree with Grick, at least by RAW. Nothing in the requirements of the feat say you have to meet the prerequisites with the same class. If this is society for instance, you are probably safe (though note, as Grick said that you are only caster level 6).
As for RAI, I think the familiar class ability and improved familiar feat clearly imply that you need to be a caster level in the appropriate class.
Either way, remember that your familiar is crazy squishy (even for a familiar) it has a 6 int no matter how high it should be, low ac, can't deliver touch spells, etc.
I am curious why you have a wizard1 bard 6 though. If you feel like sharing :-D
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Presumably to get the familiar. Which would indicate that he does not have a Bard archetype that would grant one. So for purposes of the Improved Familiar feat, he's only caster level 1.I have to agree with Grick, at least by RAW. Nothing in the requirements of the feat say you have to meet the prerequisites with the same class. If this is society for instance, you are probably safe (though note, as Grick said that you are only caster level 6).
As for RAI, I think the familiar class ability and improved familiar feat clearly imply that you need to be a caster level in the appropriate class.
Either way, remember that your familiar is crazy squishy (even for a familiar) it has a 6 int no matter how high it should be, low ac, can't deliver touch spells, etc.
I am curious why you have a wizard1 bard 6 though. If you feel like sharing :-D
By RAI I agree but RAW there is no requirement for them to be the same class. Also, what archetype are you referring too? I couldn't find any that had a familiar.
If this is for a specific character concept that he had with a wonderfully brilliant back story and such then I would probably allow the use of this feat. If it is so he has an extra UMD hand then no.
So for purposes of the Improved Familiar feat, he's only caster level 1.
Incorrect. He has wizard caster level 1, and bard caster level 6. As feats do not require all prerequisites to be from the same class, he qualifies for any improved familiar with a CL of 6 or less.
Also, what archetype are you referring too? I couldn't find any that had a familiar.
The Sea Singer archetype in APG grants a Familiar at 2nd level.
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So for purposes of the Improved Familiar feat, he's only caster level 1.Incorrect. He has wizard caster level 1, and bard caster level 6. As feats do not require all prerequisites to be from the same class, he qualifies for any improved familiar with a CL of 6 or less.
Also, what archetype are you referring too? I couldn't find any that had a familiar.The Sea Singer archetype in APG grants a Familiar at 2nd level.
I'd have to dig around to refute this further, but it sure sounds like a "weeze" of the rules to do it this way, and not to mention the fact by this way his bard levels presumably allow him to get a 5th caster level Improved familiar?
Edit: Sea Singer = no problems, stack away! (as long as it's a monkey or parrot(raven), which is on the list.)
not to mention the fact by this way his bard levels presumably allow him to get a 5th caster level Improved familiar?
The feat has three prerequisites. He meets all three prerequisites. What's the problem?
Does Shapeshifting Hunter only work if you find a class that grants both Favored Enemy and Wild Shape? Of course not.
Sea Singer = no problems, stack away!
That grants the bard a familiar, it doesn't make his caster levels stack.
A level 1 wizard, 6 bard, with a familiar (from bard), still has caster level 1 and caster level 6.
A Bard6/Wizard1/Sorcerer1/Druid1/Witch1 who gets a familiar from each of those classes still doesn't have a caster level of 7 and doesn't qualify for a Quasit.
I'm not arguing from a point of RAW however, just RAI.
Is that the intent for all prerequisites, or just this one feat?
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@sporge, that makes no sense. Bards get arcane caster levels on their own. The to caster levels don't stack but the feat doesn't require that the class you get the familiar from has a caster level of 5-7 is requires that the character gains a arcane caster level of 5-7. The bard is Caster level 6 bard so it qualifies.
Meanwhile the fighter has no caster level at all and Eldridge Heritage does nothing to change that. Taking the Arcane bloodline and getting a familiar (which is what I would have done in the OPs situation) does not grant you a caster level, it says your are a sorcerer -2 for the purposes of the power.
So does this mean that Adepts, Rogues who take the Familiar advanced rogue talent, and characters who take the Eldritch Heritage feat to gain a familiar through the Arcane bloodline can never qualify for the Improved Familiar feat if they have no levels in any arcane class?
I am curious why you have a wizard1 bard 6 though. If you feel like sharing :-D
Well... actually, that was a simplification of my situation. I chose those classes because I thought it would be more clear that I do not derive the familiar from the class whose arcane caster level I'm depending on.
I love familiars, though, so she was planning on Eldritch Heritage, except she's a little tight on feats; a level of wizard would work out beautifully in a number of ways, including earlier access to cold spells for the Rime metamagic, through admixture school, plus Scribe Scroll.
Anyway, it's ok if my faerie dragon or lyrakien is a little slow; I guess it explains why they're hanging out in a giant purple butterfly-and-star-covered wagon with an old fortuneteller claiming she's a young noblewoman... and why they'll be so thrilled if they ever manage to roll the butterflies on a Rod of Wonder.
As to my original question, it looks like the general consensus seems to be that it's legal by the RAW, although even some who agree with that would disallow it anyway. As it turns out, my DM is fine with it, but I'm glad there's no particular evidence here to suggest overturning that decision.
Meanwhile the fighter has no caster level at all and Eldridge Heritage does nothing to change that. Taking the Arcane bloodline and getting a familiar (which is what I would have done in the OPs situation) does not grant you a caster level, it says your are a sorcerer -2 for the purposes of the power.
and
So does this mean that Adepts, Rogues who take the Familiar advanced rogue talent, and characters who take the Eldritch Heritage feat to gain a familiar through the Arcane bloodline can never qualify for the Improved Familiar feat if they have no levels in any arcane class?
I hadn't noticed that. That's really unfortunate in particular for rogues who might want a flanking buddy or a familiar who can be invisible. I wonder if that is intentional.
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not to mention the fact by this way his bard levels presumably allow him to get a 5th caster level Improved familiar?The feat has three prerequisites. He meets all three prerequisites. What's the problem?
Does Shapeshifting Hunter only work if you find a class that grants both Favored Enemy and Wild Shape? Of course not.
Sea Singer = no problems, stack away!That grants the bard a familiar, it doesn't make his caster levels stack.
A level 1 wizard, 6 bard, with a familiar (from bard), still has caster level 1 and caster level 6.
A Bard6/Wizard1/Sorcerer1/Druid1/Witch1 who gets a familiar from each of those classes still doesn't have a caster level of 7 and doesn't qualify for a Quasit.
What about a 7th level Bard Sea Singer would he/she qualify for an Improved Familiar?
Kirby
not to mention the fact by this way his bard levels presumably allow him to get a 5th caster level Improved familiar?The feat has three prerequisites. He meets all three prerequisites. What's the problem?
Does Shapeshifting Hunter only work if you find a class that grants both Favored Enemy and Wild Shape? Of course not.
Sea Singer = no problems, stack away!That grants the bard a familiar, it doesn't make his caster levels stack.
A level 1 wizard, 6 bard, with a familiar (from bard), still has caster level 1 and caster level 6.
A Bard6/Wizard1/Sorcerer1/Druid1/Witch1 who gets a familiar from each of those classes still doesn't have a caster level of 7 and doesn't qualify for a Quasit.
What about a 7th level Bard Sea Singer would he/she qualify for an Improved Familiar?
Kirby
yes, a 7th level sea singer is equivalent to a 7th level wizard for his familiar, and can take improved familiar.
I dunno. In the games I run, I let spellcaster types that want a buffer familiar to get them as of the level it dictates on the feat, without having to blow a feat slot on it. Familiars are too squishy as it is, so I encourage slightly more powerful ones. PC's just have to wait until they get to the appropriate level before automatically getting the one they wanted so much, that and have the right alignment.
Bit of thread necromancy here, but what about this line...
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Does it not, for purposes of the familiar, mean your caster level is higher?
So, for an example of my own, could I have a level 5 Gunslinger (Buccaneer) / level 2 Witch with a lyrakien? Since for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level the total level is 7?