Undead minion AC and level scaling

[Nemal]

So, when you make something into a zombie or skeleton, they gain an AC rating according to size- not base creature, so a zombified turtle is just as squishy as a zombified human, all else being equal.

This seems to work fine at low levels, since undead minions have low AC compared to the fortified members of the party (cleric, fighter) but can be buffed (mage armor) and they feel like they're squishy but not hopelessly so.

As the cleric levels up, the AC and to Hit stats on both him and his opponents go up, but the AC on his minions stays the same.

Does this cause problems for anyone else? It seems to me like high level undead minions just get power attacked and everything hits them with a roll of 2 on the dice, making attempts at increasing their durability kind of pointless...

[Tom S 820]

But he can get better minions as he levels....

First off that can not do his till level 5 as cleric or 6 as Orcle. Or level 7 as wizard or 8 as sorcer. Look as comman CR 5-8 monster at 5 we have troll, at 6 we have ettin, at 7 we have stegosaurus and hil giant, at 8 we have triceratops and stone giant. All common foes for when you get the spell. But if look at list that I gave you they also get better as you go. Troll skeliton cool but not as cool as Stone Gaint Skeleton.

This dose not mean you can not buff them up.

This dose mean grabe one use it till falls apart or till you see another thing to get that is better.

Are you what a PET like aniamal companion? That get better as you level? Then best thing I can say Leadership feat and get cool undead with Int and add class level to them. 5th level fighter vampire. Or Rouge ghouls

[Nemal]

Hm, the point is rather- as you level up, you face creatures with more HD, which hit harder, have more HP, better saves, etc.

These make for undead minions with more HD, which hit harder, have more HP, better saves, etc...

... except for AC. Your zombie minion will have AC 14ish at level 5 and when you're level 15, they'll be... what, AC 15, maybe? Their AC, inexplicably, does not go up, which is weird to me.

[DeathSpot]

So a bog-standard skeleton, the CR 1/3 version, has AC 16 (broken chain shirt, +2 Dex, +2 natural). Nothing stopping you from having it put on better armor. Throw on chainmail instead (surely you can afford that for your minion at 6th level, right?) and its AC jumps to 20. A troll skeleton, at CR 3, has an AC of 14. And that's without armor. So the same chainmail would also bump his AC to 20. Yeah, it's more expensive, because the troll's large, but that's a pretty big jump in AC for a relatively small amount of gold.

...and yeah, it'll make the skeleton a bit slower. So give it a bow.

[Nemal]

Skeletons only have armor proficiencies if the base creature had them, though- and most creatures don't.

If you throw armor on your undead minion, they take the armor check penalty as a penalty on attack rolls, which makes them have a decent AC but makes them effectively harmless.

Instead, I just have the party's Sorcerer cast Mage Armor on them, which is a nice stop-gap solution, but even then ACs quickly run past the AC that the undead are getting...

Does anyone make CR 1/3 skeletons? What are they even useful for? :P

[DeathSpot]

Well, then, make sure you're animating dead fighters, then. Don't kill the troll until it's taken at least one level (actually, trolls prefer to level in aristocrat, but nobody ever lets them). Then you'll be right as rain.

The base message of my previous post was to make sure you're aware that you don't have to use run-of-the-mill undead minions (which, by your post, you are); you're free to add buffs or equipment that enhances their survival. And the equipment is likely to outlast the minion, so it's reusable.

CR 1/3 skeletons are useful as speedbumps, if nothing else. Not a bad way to stop a charging monster.

EDIT: One other thing: keep in mind that undead minions aren't 'minions' per se, they're a sort of expensive and (occasionally) long-lasting buff. They're just the product of a spell, after all.

[Nemal]

Animating a dead fighter gives you a 1 HD skeleton (or 2 HD zombie), neither of which are useful for... pretty much anything, at the point where you get the spell.

They're not even speedbumps, they're collateral damage. They're more of a bother to carry around than the boost they give you to combat.

Instead, I take two minions, each of which are as close to double the CL of the cleric as possible. These minions are pretty strong and certainly helpful.

However, as you get stronger minions, their AC doesn't grow. You run into a dinosaur with AC 20 because they have a +8 natural armor bonus; you animate the skeleton, the dinosaur now has 6 fewer points of AC.

When you run into the AC 30 high CR creature and you animate it, the amount of AC it loses via the animation process increases.

[DeathSpot]

Okay, again, it's the product of casting a spell - and a third-level one at that. I get the sense that you're comparing it to Leadership. So what if the undead have a (relatively) low AC? They're not supposed to replace frontline melee combatants. They can lift and carry stuff, provide flank bonuses, and act as battlefield control. They're supposed to be expendable.
Oh, and I wasn't recommending that you use animate dead to make CR 1/3 skeletons; I was merely showing one possible use. I certainly agree that you're usually better off with a few high-CR skeletons than a lot of low-CR ones - unless you've got a giant pile of longbows and arrows sitting in your portable hole with nothing better to do, and a horde of goblins a quarter mile away. At 5th level, that's 10 skeletons per casting, and you can control up to 20, right? Yeah, they'll miss a lot, but they'll also take up a lot of space on the battlefield.

[Snakebearer]

I think what DeathSpot was trying to say that if the troll/giant had levels in fighter, it would be proficient with the armor and weapon.

Otherwise, just animate a high dex non-humanoid monster of the proper CR = Boom. There you go. Plus, make it a bloody skeleton too, and you're ready to own stuff.

But tbh, the skeleton/zombies from animate dead are really meant to be fodder or glass cannons. If you're after "one strong" minion, I'd be looking at Create Undead instead. If you really want a skeleton, make a Skeleton Champion. It retains pretty much everything, including class levels. Downside is that it is intelligent, and gets a saving throw to throw off your commands each day.

Personally, for low level play before Create Undead. Go creative. You really have to compare Natural Armor and Dex mod between creatures if you really want to focus on getting a skeleton with AC (Which isn't it's strong point anyways. Remember, due to the +2 Dex from the skeleton template, the "normal" +3 natural armor for most animals is accounted for.

Like mentioned earlier, these unintelligent undead are not supposed to be comparable to an animal companion, a cohort or a planar ally/bonded creature. It would simply not make any sense.

[Nemal]

Snakebearer wrote:

Otherwise, just animate a high dex non-humanoid monster of the proper CR = Boom. There you go. Plus, make it a bloody skeleton too, and you're ready to own stuff.

Again.

The problem is this.

A CR 1 skeleton has an AC of 16ish.

A CR 10 skeleton has an AC of 16ish.

A CR 20 skeleton has an AC of 16ish.

Every other trait on the minions grows. They have terrible saves, sure, but they grow. The HP on them is pretty strong. Their to-hit and damage values go up.

AC doesn't. This seems like a mechanical oversight.

Snakebearer wrote:

But tbh, the skeleton/zombies from animate dead are really meant to be fodder or glass cannons. If you're after "one strong" minion, I'd be looking at Create Undead instead.

You're allowed to have two minions of double your HD as skeletons or zombies; you're allowed to have a single minion of your own HD or less with Create Undead. It's not going to be particularly strong.

Snakebearer wrote:

Like mentioned earlier, these unintelligent undead are not supposed to be comparable to an animal companion, a cohort or a planar ally/bonded creature. It would simply not make any sense.

Undead minions are an important part of what makes evil clerics competitive with good clerics. They get crap spontaneous casting and crap energy channeling. In many ways, Animate Dead is an important part of the class.

This is also getting tangential.

Why does AC not scale on skeletons and zombies like anything else? It seems weird that an animated turtle would have the same AC as an animated squishy.

[Tom S 820]

CR 1 Battel

AC Wolf CR 1 AC 14 vs wolf skeliton CR 1 AC 15

winner Wolf skeliton

Attack Wolf +2 (1d6+1 plus trip)vs Wolf Skeliton +2 (1d6+1 plus trip) and 2 claws +2(1d4+2)

winner Wolf skeliton

HP Wolf HP 13 vs Wolf Skeliton HP 9

winner Wolf

Wolf DR none vs Wolf Skeliton DR 5/ blunt

Winner Wolf skeliton

Save total wolf 11 vs Wolf Skeliton 6

winner wolf

Wolf Skeliton Win 3 to 2

[Tom S 820]

Does anyone make CR 1/3 skeletons? What are they even useful for? :P

anwers

A) blocker
B) flanker
C) door openers
D) trapfinders
E) fisrt one in the door to draw fire
F) eat up AoO

So basicly to give you +2 to hit and /or to get hit so you do not.

[Tom S 820]

All basic gaint IE Beasairy 1 have armor por beside stone gaint.