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My gaming group comprises of 10 people (thats including me) and I am taking the helm at GMing for a while. I and one other player are the only ones familiar with Pathfinder as we have been playing it since it arrived on the gaming scene. Because the other player and I like Pathfinder over the old 3.5 (which is what we usually always play) I am going to run the RotRL-AE for them.
My question is can you increase the difficulty of the 6 adventure series to encompass 9 players? As a GM of some PFS games I understand the level of difficulty scaling that is offered with the scenarios, but only having just picked up the RotRL book, I am curious from those GMs and players that know the adventure if its possible? If so, any advice you would like to impart?
Wow. I would never run a game for 9 people. My advice, split the group in 2. That would make 2 groups of 4 player, which is nice.
If you are deadset on running with 9 players. You can almost double the creatures in every encounter. With special NPCs you'd have to take a different approach.
Combat is going to take forever. Especially if everyone is unfamiliar with the rules.
Good luck though. Having 10 people who want to play a game sounds like a problem I'd be willing to have. =)
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90% of combat with Pathfinder is D&D which everyone is familiar with, so the time for turns really isn's an issue. I won't split it, someone would get butt hurt that they are not in one group and not the other. Bunch of 40 year old kids. :)
I figure I will be giving most boss fights additional minions they will have to deal with. I am just wondering if anyone has any insight as to it being doable since they have run the campaign.
Yikes! I find 6 PCs to be the largest group size I can GM. More just gets too unwieldy.
RotRL, like all of the APs, is designed around having a party of 4 players. You're looking to be having over double that regular amount of firepower. As to whether the AP can support 9 players, that all depends on you. All the encounters will have to be customised. I can also forsee issues in regards to the terrain of the encounters: there are quite a few narrow dungeons and the like where having twice the number of players and twice the number of mooks could clog things up significantly.
I have to ask, with 9 players, how do you handle RP situations? How do you manage all players feeling like they're contributing in a significant way? It seems like a monumental task to run a game for that many players.
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Well role-play is generally sparse in most of our older games. Its more of a gathering of all the married guys wanting a night away from the family and the single guys hanging with friends of 20+ years. But we do have it, there are some that monopolize it, those that just sit back and watch, and those that do both. I've already told them that I expect them ALL to role-play during this and to cut out all table talk so that we can actually role-play. I don't want it to bog the game down but I don't want it ignored either. We can usually find a delicate balance.
Having read a good chuck of the first two parts of the first chapter, I think that a good night for us will get up to and through the raid during the festival and we will be able to do plenty of RP. For us getting together is the meat of it, even if the night might mean that I don't roll any dice, the interaction is worth the time, so generally speaking everyone always has fun.
This is a tough one.
Adjusting for a party of twice the expected size is going to take a lot of time and effort; that might undermine the advantages of using a published module to begin with.
Do you normally run published modules, or hombrew?
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Normally I use the published stuff (PFS) but that is with a different group.
Right now, doubling almost every encounter is the plan. So for example during the swallowtail festival they will encounter one wave of 7 goblins, another wave of 6 pyros and 2 warchanters, then another wave of 6 with 2 commandos.
I figure that will be my litmus test for how it will work out, but I will be nitpicking every encounter and tweaking it.
I admire your can-do attitude, but I wouldn't do it.
Anything more than 6 players, especially if the solution is more baddies, and a single combat round becomes a marathon.
Good luck, though. Let us know how it turns out!
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I have GM everything from 2 players to 10.
1) Delegate
Have one of the Player run initiative. They get everyone's Initiative Rolls and they calls out who up during combat.
One Player is in charge of loot. I have prepared list and I give it to that person.
Any NPC get delegated out to a player for combat and sometime for role-playing.
2) Beef up the monsters
Boost monsters HP. Most of the pre-written monsters have high average for HPs. I just increase their HPS to max.
Example Goblin warrior 1 has hp 6 (1d10+1) which goes to HP 11 (1d10+1)
I also like to add Templates. Advanced and Fiendish are a couple of my favorites.
It has been said add more monster per encounter.
Add class levels also helps.
I hope this helps. I will think about it some more tonight after I get home.
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Sannos has it. Not only increase the number of monsters, but beef them up and level them up. Make Nualia a beast, with three Yeth Hounds. Have them scattering all over Thistletop. I have run as many as 10 before. It has been a while. It was unwieldy at best. It sounds like you have a great gaming group though.
Good luck to you.
Mazra
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Ah good call Sannos on just beefing up to max and adding maybe 1 or 2 more mobs depending on CR.
Loot is "usually" handled by one person, generally the rogue leaps at it. And then the table knowledge vs character knowledge is always an interesting affair. Usually because the rogue adds another share and keeps it for themselves. You know, for all the work they did dividing out the loot. :)
I love the idea for the Initiative. It keeps one player involved and frees up my end from one more thing to keep track of.
I'll have to look into adding templates. I usually only do that for homebrew games. But by then its added because I wanted it that way to begin with.
If all goes well, I hope to have the internet friendly individuals come in here and keep track of a Journal. We always did that for our Hero games when we would run that. (You want to talk about a slow game. Get 10 people playing Hero and have an intense combat break out.) Then everyone gets an idea of why their character acts as they do and can get more involved in the story and character. It helps to keep the RP in the game by adding it after the game as well.
Usually if they keep a journal and post it for the group to see I give them a boon. I will probably do that in RotRL with boons for the players like a 1 use reroll for the next week, etc. Plus I can get them here and make it enjoyable for everyone to read the chaos that is Tuesday night.
I'm still not sure it's going to help with the length of the round, and that's my biggest concern here. More HP might make it more challenging, but it can also double the length of combats.
But, Useplanb knows his limits better than I.
What about having someone co-GM and not be a player?
Monsters could be divided into two groups, one for each GM to control. This would speed up combat as well as remove one additional player controlled character.
It would freshen up NPCs as well. Having two people to provide personalities and voice for NPCs would really liven up the roleplaying.
Just another idea.
It also makes it possible to split the party of PCs at certain points if needed.
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Length of round isn't to much of an issue (playing Hero proves that) as long as people are away from real life for 4-5 hours, once a week they are happy.
Thats an idea Astral, but pacing would be an issue I see popping up right away. Plus there is only one other person familiar with Pathfinder and he is not a GM. So I'll stick with just me.
Wow. I would never run a game for 9 people. My advice, split the group in 2. That would make 2 groups of 4 player, which is nice.
This. A thousand times this. I think it would be interesting to see how the different groups dealt with different problems. Moreover, there's nothing worse in my opinion than having to play around player absences, and the more people int he group the more you will inevitably have.
Normally I use the published stuff (PFS) but that is with a different group.
Right now, doubling almost every encounter is the plan. So for example during the swallowtail festival they will encounter one wave of 7 goblins, another wave of 6 pyros and 2 warchanters, then another wave of 6 with 2 commandos.
I figure that will be my litmus test for how it will work out, but I will be nitpicking every encounter and tweaking it.
Any Bosses are going to HAVE to be tougher too. Seriously.
I thought the original started in 4708. Don't know if they changed that...
Anything around 4708 should work just fine, I think. Specific dates don't enter into the AP at all.
Start in fall with the understanding that Book 3 is a bit wintery (or rainy, which is wintery for Paizofolk up there in the northwestern US).
No party in their right mind would do book 6 in the winter, which is just as well, since they'll probably be tackling it in the summer unless your party stops for a lot of downtime.
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Paizo's books always presumes publishing year +2700, which for Runelords was 2007, so 4707. However, they try their best to tie relatively recent events to x years before the campaign, so that it can be moved about to suit your needs.
Tbh, it doesn't really make much difference, so just choose a year near there that works.
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Having run RotRL once, I would suggest modifying some of the combat tactics to take out some of the mook fights. The AP assumes that you'll wear down some resources by fighting dungeons piecemeal and certain group hanging back. With a group that big, just getting everyone set up for combat takes long enough that I would tend to run the dungeons as one or two big fights. Have the mooks run to join up with their boss instead of trying to take on an entire squad of adventurers by themselves. This also gives the baddies the same advantage the PCs do of sharing some buffs without adding more casters (bless, bard song, haste etc).
Im not totally sure. I found a calendar on the forums to use for the game but I can't really pinpoint the year this all starts.
As others have stated already, there's no hard and fast date, you can adjust as necessary (the only hard date I know of is Second Darkness). However, it has to be at least 4707 if you're using any of the dates in the book. On page 27, when talking about Tsuto, it mentions 4705 and then two years of time in between. 4708 sounds like the most reasonable date to me, but really, you can run things however you want.
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Deliberate thread necromancy! My question has the same title, so I re-use this thread.
Please advise me about GMing Rise of the Rune Lords. I'm trying to decide how far up to dial the difficulty. I'm considering a range of difficulty 8-11, on a 1-10 scale.
Situation: It's a group of 6 roleplayers with nearly two centuries of combined D&D experience. We meet weekly, for about 4 hours. I joined the group a few months ago as a player. The party is well balanced and the individual PCs are all optimized 15th level characters who have mostly been played up through 10+ levels. All are highly dedicated & motivated players. I recently played the previous few sessions of RotRL with this group. The players, and their PCs, operate well as a team.
The party is: Blockbuster Wizard (dedicated anvil), tanky Synthesist Summoner (dedicated hammer), Bloodrager Barbarian (dedicated hammer?), a Wildshape Druid (Hammer & secondary arm), and Life Shaman (dedicated arm). That's 3 hammers, an anvil, and an arm. Ideal group, except for the absence of a bard. My evangelist cleric PC (arm & anvil combo) steps out when I take up the GM reins. I'm a very experienced GM, and have a few years of running PF through 12th level. This will be my first time GMing Pathfinder at 15th level.
I'm now stepping up as GM. I'll pick up GMing RotRL in the last 20%. I'm enjoying the huge amount of prep. We have an ideal physical play environment. We use a full-table battle mat with lots of minis, especially lots of large and huge minis. I'll do large-scale maps and displays for the players through Roll20, on the biggest screen I can scavenge. I'll use the battlemap table as the 'map within the map' for small scale tactical combat. I'm working out dice macros for very rapid batched combat resolution, etc.
The PC have entered Xin-Shalest. They're currently camped near the scraped-out-and-consecrated Lair of the Hidden Beast. Morgiv is now a strong ally. The PC's next action will surely be to pop back up to the surface and attempt to pass through Xin Shalest to get at Karzoug.
It's a very strong party. The PCs usually annihilate all opponents in 1-2 rounds. The players want to be challenged. They have said, "It's OK if it's a TPK". They want 'Hard Mode'. I'll give it to them.
Were I to follow the linear plot of RotRL the PCs will easily defeat Karzoug's forces in detail. Instead, I'll have Karzoug go on the offensive and attempt to destroy the PCs. He'll order Khalib * Ceoptera to gather many minions and slay the PCs, thereby leaving himself nearly defenseless. The PCs are clever enough to dodge all the minions and cut ahead to Karzoug, but I doubt the players will consider it, as it's a 'metagame violation'. They might try it, though, and it might work.
I'm concerned I might over do it. Karzoug knows they are coming & knows all he could learn about them. He has detailed 'files' on each, in fact. He has been following their advance with interest. Several PCs wear Sihedron rings. Karzoug doesn't want them to remove the rings, so he'll attempt to conceal the fact that he knows their every move.
I've counted up and assesses all Karzoug's available minions. Most of the giants are semi-rebellious labour slaves, not worthy of fighting alongside Karzoug's elite minions. The giant laborers get a festival and all the liquor they can drink, to keep them distracted (so they don't rebel) while most of their keepers are away.
Here's the worst I can think of, which I think will kill those PCs unable to flee, and scatter the rest. Please help me figure out how the PCs will respond, especially those with experience playing 15th level casters. Here's my plan:
A. Break the minions into about 6 combined arms teams.
B. Each team gets an elite spell caster minion (Khalib, Ceoptera, & 4 lesser casters), 2 flying scouts & couriers, several Rune Giants, their various enslaved Storm & Cloud giants, and three well-trained squads of Stone & Hill giants. Call each team a platoon.
C. Karzoug's forces will also include a 'shock brigade', troops that will be sacrificed to blunt the PC's swords and tire their arms. This will be a small horde of summoned fiends Karzoug & allies have been collecting for just this occasion, plus a rabble of hill and stone giants stupid enough to attack the PCs.
C. Karzoug can communicate both ways with his elite minions. He can and will direct the battle.
D. Karzoug's intent is to defeat the PCs with 1000 cuts. Before showing the existence of the platoon-sized teams, he'll hit the PCs with rabble. The 'rabble' giants have recently been 'trained' to avoid clumping up, via the simple expedient of blasting them with a very weak fireball whenever they clump in groups of 3 or more. The PCs will have perhaps 30 minutes in-game to engage rabble mooks & use up resources. I guess they will inflict about 1,000 HP per round when they nova, which is killing 5-10 giants per round. If they conserve resources they'll do about half that.
E. Eventually the PCs will decide to cut and run. They will be low on spells and other resources. Karzoug knows this is the inevitable outcome, so there are pursuit teams prepared.
F. Pursuit Team One will wait in ambush on the route of the PCs most likely escape route. They will actively engage the PCs in direct combat. They will lose, but they'll draw blood and attention. Khalib will lead.
G. Pursuit Team Two will strike the PCs from behind, while they are distracted by Pursuit Team One. They will go for the kill. Ceoptera will lead. She's rebuilt to be considerably more effective.
H. I've rebuilt some of the high level NPCs, to give them a limited selection of splat-book goodies that have arrived since RotRL was written circa 2008. E.g. The Harridan Clerics will have Variant Channel (Madness) for an AoE confusion effect, various other post-2008 power-enhancing options. Please go crazy with suggestions.
I. Some of the lesser giants have a few class levels in bards, cleric , ranger, inquisitor, oracle, etc. These are not much extra power in themselves, but are an effective force multiplier. E.g. Foes will usually have bardsong and assorted other buffs.
J. All teams are prepared to pursue the PCs underground, should they escape by going into the tunnels underneath Xin-Shalest. I'll have a map on hand of the nearest such escape route. Karzoug's minions will attempt to maintain contact with the PCs.
K. Karzoug's minions will prevent the PCs from resting. Teams will take turns harrying the PCs, so Karzoug's minions remain rested. The intent is to deny the PCs even 15 minutes of rest.
L. The blue dragon, and a smaller ally he recruited for Karzoug, will be waiting to pounce from the air. The PCs already encountered the dragon: he tried an invisible strafing run but they detected him and hurt him so badly he chose to escape via Dimension Door before he was even able to attack. The PCs, and the players, expect
the dragon to strike at the worst possible moment.
M. Karzoug wants a way to prevent the PCs from fleeing, to go for the kill. His minions can prepare and cast Dimension Lock, but there must be something better. Ideally, Karzoug would like temporarily make all of Xin Shalest a no-teleport zone. Please suggest some options.
N. What other nasty power-gamer stuff can Karzoug do to maximize his minions' chances of killing the PCs? What useful minions have a left out?
O. Combining all Karzoug's many minions seems to make this about a CR30 encounter. 15th level PCs shouldn't stand a chance. Only if they are able to disengage and rest can they defeat such might.
So, please share your opinions! What am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? What advice can you offer?
Ugh - I blanche at 5 players. I'd rather go to the dentist than try to do 8 or more.
Maybe let some of the guys play the villains? I've had guest GM's sit in on games before and run major villains at times in the past...
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Ugh - I blanche at 5 players. I'd rather go to the dentist than try to do 8 or more.
Maybe let some of the guys play the villains? I've had guest GM's sit in on games before and run major villains at times in the past...
I may not have communicated clearly. I am one of a group of 6. Thus, I have 5 players. It's an ideal group. The 8-11 range is the difficulty knob.
I am having a reborn Nualia join the enemy as a Succubus Antipaladin, she Kalid, Cheopatra and whatver other minions look appropriate will teleport in and attack the party after they have fought the Dragon. Your list does not seem to include the high level fighter armed with the Sword of Greed who should either be Karzoug's bodyguard or in one of the strike teams. There is also the powerful bound demon that could help out one of the strike teams
Alternatively have all the elite NPC's make their stand with Karzoug although I don't see how a party will beat Chepatra, Khalid, the high level fighter, Karzoug and his pets.
I find dimensional anchor works better than Dimensional Lock, proviting limited SR low level minion can anchor the pc's and then start the killing.
If Karzoug thinks he will have time to recover have him use his spell slots to boost his minions he is a 20th level transmuter and can do a lot of boosts