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This might apply to any Wizard/Division caster also.
When a Wizard also has a divine class, does this provide
automatic access to spells which are on both divine and
arcane lists? A wizard takes a level in Cleric and can
now cast Magic weapon as a divine spell. Does that give
access to the arcane version of that spell and can be
placed in the wizards spell book?
No. But you could write a scroll of the Divine version, and then read it back to yourself so that you can add it to your spellbook.
Which is pretty daft, but them's the rules.
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No. But you could write a scroll of the Divine version, and then read it back to yourself so that you can add it to your spellbook.
Which is pretty daft, but them's the rules.
Since a Theurge can prepare a spell from the divine list in an arcane
slot, then why can't the spell be put in the spellbook from memory?
No. But you could write a scroll of the Divine version, and then read it back to yourself so that you can add it to your spellbook.
Which is pretty daft, but them's the rules.
Since a Theurge can prepare a spell from the divine list in an arcane
slot, then why can't the spell be put in the spellbook from memory?
The answer is RAW. Chapter 9 (pg. 219) in the Core Rulebook has a section entitled "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook". All of the possible avenues for adding spells to a spellbook are listed there and unfortunately you cannot simply scribe a spell into your spellbook from memory like you can onto a scroll.
Its just the way that adding spells to your spellbook has been restricted to work (possibly for game balance?)At least you can use the scroll scribe trick as VRMH suggested. Its kind of a hassle but then again, be glad that its at least a possibility. Would give theurges an odd advantage. Remember that if you utilize this option, your divine->arcane spell is a level higher than normal per the Combined Spells ability.
No. But you could write a scroll of the Divine version, and then read it back to yourself so that you can add it to your spellbook.
Which is pretty daft, but them's the rules.
Divine scrolls don't get added to spellbooks.
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
That entire section is in regard to arcane spells. There is no rule permitting divine spells to be added.
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No. But you could write a scroll of the Divine version, and then read it back to yourself so that you can add it to your spellbook.
Which is pretty daft, but them's the rules.
Since a Theurge can prepare a spell from the divine list in an arcane
slot, then why can't the spell be put in the spellbook from memory?
The answer is RAW. Chapter 9 (pg. 219) in the Core Rulebook has a section entitled "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook". All of the possible avenues for adding spells to a spellbook are listed there and unfortunately you cannot simply scribe a spell into your spellbook from memory like you can onto a scroll.
Its just the way that adding spells to your spellbook has been restricted to work (possibly for game balance?)
At least you can use the scroll scribe trick as VRMH suggested. Its kind of a hassle but then again, be glad that its at least a possibility. Would give theurges an odd advantage. Remember that if you utilize this option, your divine->arcane spell is a level higher than normal per the Combined Spells ability.
The section on 'Replacing and Copying Spellbooks' is what I am referring to. Does a Wizard actually have to 'lose' his spellbook to do things this way? And if he finds it again is it no good anymore because he started to replace it? If it were a 'borrowed' spellbook he could prepare spells from it, but since it was originally his he cannot?
That is pretty convoluted and absurd IMO.
There is no rule permitting divine spells to be added.
You are correct. But it's okay to use a Divinely created scroll, as long as the spell is also on the Wizard's (Arcane) spell-list.
There is no rule permitting divine spells to be added.You are correct. But it's okay to use a Divinely created scroll, as long as the spell is also on the Wizard's (Arcane) spell-list.
That is also incorrect. The spell must be on your class list, and also of the correct type(arcane or divine).
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
Many GM's ignore that, but the rule is the scroll must be on the class list, and be of the correct type.
Many GM's ignore that, but the rule is the scroll must be on the class list, and be of the correct type.To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
That's odd, as there seems to be no stipulation requiring the actual scrolls themselves to be either Arcane or Divine except in this quote. And I cannot recall any scrolls in the source material being marked as either type.
Still: copying a scroll into a spellbook does not require activation.
the wizard must first decipher the magical writing. Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook. The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
No activation required, and so a "Divine scroll" can be used.
Many GM's ignore that, but the rule is the scroll must be on the class list, and be of the correct type.To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.That's odd, as there seems to be no stipulation requiring the actual scrolls themselves to be either Arcane or Divine except in this quote. And I cannot recall any scrolls in the source material being marked as either type.
Still: copying a scroll into a spellbook does not require activation.
the wizard must first decipher the magical writing. Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook. The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.No activation required, and so a "Divine scroll" can be used.
Actually since the rules only cover copying arcane spells that is all you can do. There are no rules for copying divine spells. Now if the rules had just said you can copy spells without mentioning the word "arcane" you might have been correct by RAW, but for now unless you can provide a quote that supports divine spells also then you are incorrect.
Just to be clear a divine version of a spell is divine. The arcane version is arcane so if the scroll is divine, the spell is divine, and therefore can not be copied into the spellbook.
edit: Scrolls made by divine casters are divine in nature.
In care you missed it:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
There you go. The scroll is divine.
That section you quoted is in the Arcane Magical Writing section, not the Magical Writing section.
It also says this:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic...
As you can see all references are to arcane spells, not divine.
The section on 'Replacing and Copying Spellbooks' is what I am referring to. Does a Wizard actually have to 'lose' his spellbook to do things this way? And if he finds it again is it no good anymore because he started to replace it? If it were a 'borrowed' spellbook he could prepare spells from it, but since it was originally his he cannot?
That is pretty convoluted and absurd IMO.
Ah, gotcha. As wraithstrike pointed out (indirectly) I am wrong. The divine spell that you are memorizing in that arcane slot still remains a divine spell.[thx wraith]
The Combined Spells ability that allows you to memorize a divine spell in an arcane slot says that "The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell". Continuing on with that line of logic, it is the wizard class that governs your arcanely-memorized divine spell.'Replacing and Copying Spellbooks' states that "A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook", and the second line under 'Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook' is: "A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists".
This is what I see anyhow. Let me know if I have missed something. :)
No he does not have to lost the book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
Note the section is giving instructions on replacing and copying a spellbook. The new book would not make you forget your own writing style in the old book. Due to the number of spells wizards learn you will need more than one spellbook anyway unless get a blessed book(1000 pages).
In short you can use that method to replace an old spellbook or copy a new one. If you borrowed a spellbook and the original caster is around then the process of copying spell is a lot easier.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
If the "borrowed" spellbook is not being given to you freely then you must copy each spell per the normal rules, deciphering and studying the spell as normal. 3.5 had a rule that would allow you to make one check to decipher the entire spell book(complete arcane), but that was in a splat book, and PF does not have that rule. I bring this up in case your GM wants to make things easier on you.
Years ago I was playing a 2e cleric/wizard and my GM used to make the distinction that an arcane spell is a formula, "hocus pocus" and whatnot....while a divine spell is a prayer, "oh mighty Pharasma, please hear your humble servant" blah blah....
From that perspective it was obvious that things like my divine "detect magic" scroll could never help my arcane spellbook.
Read magic makes deciphering the magical writing automatic.
You can decipher magical inscriptions on objects—books, scrolls, weapons, and the like—that would otherwise be unintelligible.
With read magic the decipher check will never really have to be made.
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The section on 'Replacing and Copying Spellbooks' is what I am referring to. Does a Wizard actually have to 'lose' his spellbook to do things this way? And if he finds it again is it no good anymore because he started to replace it? If it were a 'borrowed' spellbook he could prepare spells from it, but since it was originally his he cannot?
That is pretty convoluted and absurd IMO.
Ah, gotcha. As wraithstrike pointed out (indirectly) I am wrong. The divine spell that you are memorizing in that arcane slot still remains a divine spell.[thx wraith]
The Combined Spells ability that allows you to memorize a divine spell in an arcane slot says that "The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell". Continuing on with that line of logic, it is the wizard class that governs your arcanely-memorized divine spell.
'Replacing and Copying Spellbooks' states that "A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook", and the second line under 'Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook' is: "A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists".
This is what I see anyhow. Let me know if I have missed something. :)
This looks contradictory. On one hand the divine spell in the arcane
slot is still divine, yet in every way except components it is basedupon the casting class (arcane) for the spell.
Also, there has been a lot of wandering off subject.
I did not ask about scrolls.
I was not attempting to allow divine spells NOT ON THE ARCANE LIST
to be written into the Wizard Spellbook.