Greetings, adventurers! In the campaign I'm running I've introduced a new knowledge type: (forbidden). I've already got a few ideas of how I want it to work and what it would cover, but would look forward to some creative input from the boards.
I introduced it to my LVL 11 party when they uncovered a mysterious Chelish Tome that laid out the steps to create an Enochian Devil's Trap (kudos if you know the reference :P) to stop a Handmaiden Devil who was known as "Miscarriage" and "The Surrogate"... she would basically take people's babies through infernal contract and raise them as her own (making sure, of course, they couldn't cry around her by... well... creepy stuff!) She was decidedly not a typical devil and a little crazy.
The whole of her subplot exposed some ancient, dark secrets and magic, and the new knowledge type.
But what next? I have envisioned knowledge (forbidden) as something that might be in a Lovecraftian story, usually leading to no-good. I think the DCs will be scaled up a bit from standard knowledges and might cover monsters from the mythical playtest (when it becomes available)... which works very well since it won't be official PF material yet. DC 20 + CR perhaps?
I was considering having failed checks result in some forms of insanity, probably limited to mania/phobia (applying to the target of said check), schizophrenia and paranoia, perhaps with slightly steeper DCs, too, since the party members have pretty good saves across the board. I have told them that it will be dangerous to use the knowledge (forbidden) skill, and the party is cool with it, so I won't just, "Surprise, you're crazy!" them.
I also implemented that knowledge (forbidden) won't be a class skill for anyone. Upsetting for our Archeologist, who loves having amazing knowledge checks, but he thinks it is cool and makes sense, too. I was possibly thinking there might be (minor) repercussions for taking feats like skill focus for dabbling in forbidden stuff, but still haven't decided what... and no one might take said feats.
So, do any of the message board members have some cool ideas or thoughts on the matter? I'd love to hear your input!
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Oh, nice! Very cool, and very close to what I'm looking for. I might tinker with it to fit my personal vision, but that is a very helpful find.
If anyone still might have any contributions, though, I'd still love to hear them!
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That d20srd.org stuff looks like it got stolen from the Call of Cthulhu game. The lowering maximum sanity if lore increases part is a dead giveaway. Not that there's something wrong with stealing a good idea.
I wouldn't amp up difficulties too much. If it's hard to get ranks in, and failed checks have dire consequences, and the DCs are so high that it only works with a lot of ranks, and having ranks in it perhaps risks your sanity, well, then it becomes really unattractive.
A big difference between CoC and D&D is that in D&D, heroes are supposed to win, while in CoC it's about a rollercoaster down into the asylum or the monster's belly. Your character is DOOMED. And in CoC, that's okay, that's the whole idea. But it might be less fun in D&D, with it's focus on growing a PC.
Forbidden Knowledge that threatens your sanity should have an exciting risk/reward curve. Much bigger risks than normal knowledge, but also much bigger rewards. Not so much hard to use, but any time you use it, it costs you.
So I wouldn't link the insanity to failed checks or high DCs. DCs as normal for the job. Any time you succeed, the benefit is significant. You know weak spots, shortcuts to do stuff at higher caster level, bypass SR, that sort of thing. But any time you use the Forbidden Knowledge, something bad happens, even (especially!) if you succeeded at the check.
Bad stuff could be ability damage, but it's better if it's unpredictable and somewhat uncontrollable. You don't want people saying "oh, it's 1d8 Wisdom damage, that won't drop me, I can use it safely and then get a Restoration the next day." Have a table with effects, and for every PC, there should be something on the table they really hope you won't roll. For example:
-Chance to accidentally include friends in the radius of attack spells.
- Chance to temporarily lose a weapon proficiency.
- Chance to freeze up in stressful situations (Dazed for a round if in close combat with a dangerous monster).
- Difficulty sleeping (!)
- Altered (alignment) aura.
- Become a beacon for dark energies.
- Drastically diminished Will save. And so on.
Players shouldn't be able to calculate with too much certainty what will happen. But since you roll on a table (openly!), they can't accuse you of going light or hard on them; THEY decide when to take the risk that something happens that they can or can't handle.
Effects should diminish over time, but undoing them with magic should be hard or not possible, at least not with cheap magic. The best cure should be a month in the sanatorium.
You could move identifying certain creatures to it... Evil outsiders and aberrations, more specifically.
You could move identifying certain creatures to it... Evil outsiders and aberrations, more specifically.
I think I'll definitely do this!
...lots of good ideas...
Wow, you hit the nail on the head for our game!!
My thought is to have gaining ranks limited as written in the Hypertext, and to use your suggestion of higher rewards both in combat and in roleplaying and exploration challenges.
I didn't feel to certain about the CoC type mechanic, so I think creating a random table will be the way to go. Also, with your ideas of how it might work mechanically, I probably won't change the DCs and instead go with positive+negative reinforcement.
I think with the help everyone provided this will turn out to be a lot of fun for the group :)
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That d20srd.org stuff looks like it got stolen from the Call of Cthulhu game. The lowering maximum sanity if lore increases part is a dead giveaway. Not that there's something wrong with stealing a good idea.
TSR's CONAN RPG had Insanity Ranks which increase every time you read one of the Books of Skelos.
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I can see the case for identifying Aberrations/Evil Outsiders with Forbidden Knowledge, but I wouldn't remove it from their original knowledge skills, because you'd be drastically reducing those in usefulness by removing their most important use. Then the end result would be that you get a "bonus" insanity whenever you need to know about those things.
Instead, what I'd do would be giving players a choice:
a) try your luck with regular Dungeoneering. No risk if you try, no penalty for failure other than not getting the info.
b) use Forbidden Knowledge. You're guaranteed to get some insanity, but a successful check will get you everything you get with Dungeoneering at the same DC, and some benefit, like ignoring 5 points or DR, or +2 to penetrate SR, or something like that.
So I've taken to heart a lot of the great advice you all have given (special thanks to Ascalaphus!), and have put up a google document of Forbidden Knowledge. I'd love any additional feedback you guys might have!
Note, however, one of players is working with me to create addition percentile results, we think in the end there will be about 20-25 penalties.
I'll update it once we add them!
Added a lot of new features to Knowledge (forbidden) and made some changes throughout, with the help of one of my players. Just letting any who are interested know! We'll use it in our game this coming weekend.
Thanks again for the help, link is in the above post.
Dot.