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I started playing PFS with the intend of making a Zen Archer monk.
However, when I asked for advice on the build, I was informed of a debate on how Zen Archer's Fury of Blows work. Namely it can't work at the moment, due to how Fury of Blows requiring 2 weapons to work.
I decided to try out the Fighter Archer Dwarf Build instead, but felt that the requirements for combat/archer feats and low number of skill points a drain on the character building side of my character. I just can't find the space to be good in combat and still take up support or non-combat feats.
Now that I'm the verge of going to level 2 (and no more rebuilding.), I decided that switching back to the Zen Archer may be a good ideal... IF it's Fury of Blows works as intended.
So are there any update or ruling on how Fury of Blows works for the Zen Archer?
(This is also due to my the local GM back in my hometown being strict with the rules when it comes to PFS.)
No updates as of yet, and no news as to when we can look foreward to updates. "Sometime after Gencon" is the best we've heard.
last i heard, you cant play one but they are going to make the zen archer work as intended. so just play your zen archer, and in about 4-6 weeks you will be able to open up on people.most gms wont kick you in the nuts, so you most likely wont be told you cant play it.
They originally made a ruling saying that flurry of blows couldn't be used with a single weapon, but AFAIK they later reconsidered that ruling (due in part to very few people playing it that way, and even monk NPCs in Paizo adventures using single-weapon flurry) pending a future update (which hasn't come yet).
So at present, the Zen Archer should work just fine.
And I'm sure the potential update will clarify that the archetypes dependent on single-weapon flurry still function as intended, regardless of the eventual outcome for single-weapon flurry in general.
This post by Jason Bulmahn is as far as I know the last word on the subject.
In it he states that the ruling they made had brought up several concerns and problem issues, which they would evaluate further.
He (or someone else from Paizo) later stated that they would deal with the monk issues after GenCon.
It's been a problem for MONTHS and not a single meeting has been held about it yet. Don't count on it being resolved anytime soon, if it is at all.
However, theyspecifically said that no matter what happens Zen Archer will still b able to flurry with one bow. So ask around with the local PFS GMs I guess. I don't know just how incredibly obtusely blindly they follow ye holy scipture, but if you can't get a 100% consensus on doing something perfectly normal and intended ,which has been said will definitely still work no matter what happens, just because they're still "thinkin' about it"... don't make a Zen Archer for PFS. And seriously consider not doing PFS at all. Surely you can find online games or something...anything else better than having to deal with that crap.
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It's been a problem for MONTHS and not a single meeting has been held about it yet.
That's a bold statement. Do you work at Paizo?
So there was a ruling on Fury of Blows, but it was reverted to the original version?
Hummm... going to have to talk to a GM about this.
If anyone knows any further info on this, please let me know!
The thing that's causing all the problems is that it wasn't a ruling. It wasn't errata or a FAQ change. It was a "Oh, this is the way it's supposed to have always been." They later said "Oh, wait, we need to reconsider," but that doesn't change that they clarified the original intent instead of changing it.
Which leaves us all in a state of uncertainty.
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It's been a problem for MONTHS and not a single meeting has been held about it yet.That's a bold statement. Do you work at Paizo?
In the flurry of changes to FoB thread, IIRC, someone posted a quote from SKR at Gencon saying, in no uncertain terms, that they have not discussed this at all yet.
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Some PFS GM's are pretty cool - so long as you have the sourcebook with you they will let you play it.
It's worth asking before hand though.
For what it's worth a Ranger Archer may be what you are looking for - good at pin cushioning things in combat and enough skill points to allow you contribute outside of combat.
Lastoth's Guide to Archer Ranger's is a very useful tool - check it out!
oh no its turning into one of those threads again, cool the tempers, no more bolds, caps, or angry statements. double check your posts so you dont mispost in a way that will make people think you're insulting them.
with that being said, i doubt that any gm will say " you cant use your flurry with a bow" so just talk to your gm, and if he says " i dont care" then do it anyway.
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Its ok. I will just focus on my other PFS character for now. (Until this whole issue clears up.)
@StreamOfTheSky
I did not post this thread to flame this issue. I'm just seeking an update. Please don't go all upset over this.
As for the gen-con update, I'm sure that the people at Paizo are working/testing a fix for this.
I have avoided all of the monk threads thus do not really know what all the argument is about with FoB, but why wouldn't it work with a bow?
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon).
I too was interested in making a Zen Archer as this seemed like a lot of fun.
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Also, as noted many times previously, SKR, in the same post he made the clarification on how FoB works called out the Zen archer as a specific example of an exception to the rule. No Dev, Venture Captain, or anyone affiliated with Paizo or PFS has ever once tried to say that the Zen Archer doesn't make his full iterative attacks entirely with his bow while flurrying.
I had a similar issue with the "flurry of bows" feature of the Zen Archer archetype. It specifically states that you can't combine the Zen Archer's flurry attach with any other multi-arrow features (Rapid Shot, Many Shot, etc.). BUT...you can combine Rapid Shot and Many Shot, and Rapid Shot is a pre-req for several archer feats later on (Stabbing Shot being my favorite).
So with a Zen Archer, you functionally give up the "flurry" class feature of the monk (since it's only on a shortbow or longbow, not even "any ranged weapon"), you can't use the flurry with Many Shot, and you still have to take Rapid Shot to get up the feat tree anyway. Unless I'm misreading something, it sounds like the Zen Archer is getting the short end of the stick. If they just replaced "flurry of blows" with Rapid Shot as a bonus feat at first level, it seems like it would be a lot easier.
(Digression: Why do so many "Archer" archetypes create class features for extending the range increments with a long bow? I have yet to be in a scenario where I had visible targets within 80 feet, much less 100-110 feet. Have I just coincidently missed these long-range scenarios over the years?)
Use the Zen Archer as written and it works just fine. (Playing one now)
If you use rapid shot you lose bab.
You're at net -2 for all attacks, just like with flurry of blows and two-weapon fighting. It's easy to miss the -2 on the Zen Archer description, because you have follow the cross-reference thread from "flurry of bows" through flurry of blows and all the way back to two-weapon fighting.
The feats requiring rapid/multi are either included in the zen bonus feats, or aren't required.
Once you're past 2nd level, you only get the Zen bonus feats at every 4th level. Since you don't have all of the prerequisites, you can't take the other feats as your regular character feats. If you only want a few of the other archer feats, this probably works out fine. And Point Blank Master at 3rd is amazingly cool, so it could be worth giving up several other feats.
If you really want to blow a feat to stab with an arrow, ask your dm to let you sub flurry as the prereq, since it's basically the same thing.
In a home game, that's exactly what I would do. Since we were talking about PFS, the dm doesn't have the option to waive the requirement.
(and that feat is specifically designed as a way to avoid aoos when shooting, which you don't provoke anyway, so why waste an attack stabbing?)
Because it looked pretty cool when Legolas did it?
Once you're past 2nd level, you only get the Zen bonus feats at every 4th level. Since you don't have all of the prerequisites, you can't take the other feats as your regular character feats. If you only want a few of the other archer feats, this probably works out fine. And Point Blank Master at 3rd is amazingly cool, so it could be worth giving up several other feats.Which other feats? Personally, I've found myself taking skill focus and some style feats for fun since there are so few archer feats that the zam doesn't get for free...
I guess the only one remaining would be Snap Shot, so you can make AoOs with a bow.
Zam gets that for free at 9.I guess the only one remaining would be Snap Shot, so you can make AoOs with a bow.
Wow, I completely missed that.
I don't know if this link will work from my phone. But anyone looking to build a Zen Archer should give it a read. Anyone who thinks the Zen Archer gets the short end of the stick MUST read this.
Vestrial and Bobson--
Thanks for your comments and advice. I did a new level-by-level build of Zen Archer last night, and I'm really pleased with the results. (We'll see how it works out in actual play, of course.)
I did figure out why I was underestimating the Zen Archer: I usually only do PFS builds up to 5th or 6th level because higher tiers are rare in my area. I'll have to rethink that approach...
Thanks again!
Zam gets that for free at 9.I guess the only one remaining would be Snap Shot, so you can make AoOs with a bow.
Sort of. They get the benefit, but not the feat. Which dooms them to never get Improved Snap Shot, the feat that actually makes the whole archer AoO build thing worth doing. Because to do that, they'd need to spend 2 completely redundant feats (Rapid Shot, Snap Shot) and even then wait 3+ levels longer for the honor of wasting their feats due to lower BAB hurting them on when they qualify. Then, and only then, per RAW, can the poor Zen Archer get Improved Snap Shot (several levels after that) and cease being inferior to every full BAB archer at a schtick that was supposed to be something unique to him to begin with.
It's absolutely not OP at all.
Zen Archer, upon gaining Reflexive Shot, should be considered to meet ALL pre-requisites for Improved Snap Shot. Snap Shot they already have in Reflexive Shot, Rapid Shot is literally worthless to them, and if you hold them to the BAB req, they have to wait another several levels past when the fighter and ranger can get Improved Snap Shot to get it. ISS requires BAB +9; Monk gets Reflexive Shot at 9. Lines up perfectly, just let him use monk level as if it was BAB. He's not even getting it early, it's just allowing him to gain it when other people can.
I'm still miffed that they turned his unique mid level class feature into a feat at all. Nevermind that they made it so that RAW he's inferior to other classes at his own schtick.
Whether something is overpowered or not depends enntirely on your game.
Personally I would never allow it. A Zen Archer effectively gets more feats than a Figther from levels 1-12ish. The last thing I'd do is give them anything more for free.
What are they getting for free? No one ever said to give them Imp. Snap Shot for free.
All we said was to let him meet the pre-reqs for the things he effectively already has. Reflexive Shot is Snap Shot. Full stop. Flurry is effectively Rapid Shot, and the two don't stack.
Not forcing the monk to take completely redundant feats that do literally nothing for him is giving him "free stuff" to you?!
Yes, the devs would have intended it. Because they never make mistakes, or are unaware of something that was written in a previous book by some other guy.
At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes).
While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
I suppose you're correct. RS works out to natural reach, while as Snap Shot works only out to 5 ft no matter what. So RS is not only giving you all that SS does, it's also giving you more. And yet a zen archer would have to take snap shot to get improved snap shot anyway.
And flurry of blows may not be identical to rapid shot, but both are take -2 to hit for an extra attack, and zen archer isn't allowed to stack them. For him, they really are the same in all but name.