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Say a Gunslinger scores a critical threat on a Dead Shot at 7th level and both "attacks" hit (only one threat). You confirm the critical once (at a -5 penalty). Assuming a basic pistol, do you roll 5d8 or 8d8 for damage? (Or even some other permutation I'm not seeing.)
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it's just one damage roll, which is 4d8. The medium basic pistol is 1d8 20/x4 crit. That means (if you don't use crit cards) you roll 4d8 and add any bonuses you may get from point blank, deadly aim, etc. If it is a flat bonus you add it 4 times. For instance, an 11th lvl Pistolero gets to add his dexterity bonus to damage. On a normal pistol with point blank and deadly aim with a (4) dexterity it would be
1d8+(4 dex)+(1 point blank) + (6 deadly aim), for a grand total of
1d8+11 damage on a successful hit within pointblank range. If that same Pistolero crits, his roll is
1d8+11 +1d8+11 +1d8+11 +1d8+11, OR simplified to 4d8+44. If he had the trait Killer (which adds the crit rating in damage after everything else is worked out never multiplied) then his total would be 4d8+44+4 (because it is a x4 crit rating weapon)
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Ahh I see different question. Yes on that specific ability, as a full round action you basically get Vital Strike for guns.
two hits (and you confirm one of them doesn't matter which means it's a crit)
1d8 goes to 2d8.
2d8 is rolled 4 times for a total of 8d8. HOWEVER you only add the + bonuses ONE TIME. which mean in my example with two hits it would be 8d8+11.
Would it not be better to just shoot twice? If you happen to crit once it would be 4d8+44 and just hit would be 1d8+11. for a grand total damage potential (minus DR) of 5d8+55. BASE damage is always better, imo.
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Dead Shot adds a damage die to the attack for each secondary attack. The wording of the power leads me to believe that the damage is added to the base damage, not precision damage, meaning that a 7th level gunslinger's Dead Shot attack would do 2d8 if it hit, x4 (or 8d8) if it crits. That's nasty, but is balanced out by the -5 on the confirmation roll.
As someone who both plays and GMs for a gunslinger, that's how I'd rule it, anyway.
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Thank you very much for your answers (and clarification).
Of course, the more attack rolls you can stack into a single bullet, the more likely you will be to score a critical, and then there's improved critical to consider as well.
Another few Dead Shot questions:
What are the effects of True Strike on a Dead Shot attack?
My assumption: The +20 applies only to the first "attack."
What are the effects of Named Bullet on a Dead Shot attack?
My assumption: Given that it is a single bullet allotted multiple attack rolls, each one that hits is a threat. This would allow you to reduce the critical confirmation penalty by 1 for each shot. (Of course, you need to specify the creature type.)
Also, what are the effects of something like the Thundering magic weapon property on a critical hit on a dead shot? Do you add only 3d8 or do you add 6d8 for this instance?
Mysterious Stranger specifically allows CHA mod to damage if grit is spent and the damage is added per "hit" on a Dead Shot. I assume this also is multiplied on a critical. Assuming a CHA of +5, a critical as above would be 8d8+40. 5 times the 2 hits times 4 for the critical. Silly, silly damage.
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Named Bullet is an interesting mix on this:
here is the spell:
School divination; Level inquisitor 4, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (an item from the selected creature or creature type)
Range touch
Target one piece of ammunition or one thrown weapon
Duration 10 minutes/level or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
You imbue the target with deadly accuracy against a selected creature type (and subtype for humanoids or outsiders) or a specific creature you know and can name. When used against the selected creature, the ammunition never misfires and is unaffected by concealment (but not total concealment), and at a range of 30 feet or less, the attack targets the selected creature's touch AC. When the target hits the selected creature, you must overcome that creature's spell resistance, or this spell has no effect. A normal hit scored using the target against the selected creature is considered to be a critical threat and deals 1 extra point of damage per caster level (maximum 20), which is not multiplied on a critical hit. A natural critical hit deals the same extra damage, but that damage is multiplied due to the critical.
Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.
So, the important part for this combo is this line:
A normal hit scored using the target against the selected creature is considered to be a critical threat and deals 1 extra point of damage per caster level (maximum 20), which is not multiplied on a critical hit.
This would appear to read that if you make your hit roll once during a dead shot/named bullet combo, all the other rolls would be considered crit threats?
No, deadeye shot says as a full round action you pool your attacks, you are only getting the auto threat on the named bullet attack so you would need to roll the other attacks and threat with them naturally to reduce the confirmation roll passed -4 (-1 automatically for the named bullet).
Edit: Was just re reading Deadeye shot and see what you were saying. I don't know that I would allow what essentially amounts to fluff text (single powerful bullet) to mess with the balancing mechanics of the move. You are still making multiple attacks and the spell is very obviously supposed to be for a single attack.
No, deadeye shot says as a full round action you pool your attacks, you are only getting the auto threat on the named bullet attack so you would need to roll the other attacks and threat with them naturally to reduce the confirmation roll passed -4 (-1 automatically for the named bullet).
Edit: Was just re reading Deadeye shot and see what you were saying. I don't know that I would allow what essentially amounts to fluff text (single powerful bullet) to mess with the balancing mechanics of the move. You are still making multiple attacks and the spell is very obviously supposed to be for a single attack.
It's not fluff at all! It's a great money saver. You only spend one bullet, and bullets are pricey. This mechanically leads to something like an Adamantine or Silver bullet for overcoming DR. It could also lead to abuse of this spell.
The interesting line from the spell is the last one...
Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.
It is a single attack made as a full round action, but you pool attack rolls.
Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, ...
Relevant areas bolded.
@ Mr. Hopper: The mysterious stranger specifically says, "At 7th level, when she uses the dead shot deed, she multiplies this bonus by the number of hits she made while rolling the Dead Shot attack." Not at ALL like the Pistolero.
The interesting line from the spell is the last one...
Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.It is a single attack made as a full round action, but you pool attack rolls.
Actually that line makes this less problematic. Once you make your first attack the magic of the bullet is expended. It wouldn't influence the rolls past the initial attack.
The magic of Named Bullet only effects the target ammunition, so the question is whether or not that magic applies to one, all, or none of the attack rolls made during a Dead Shot. For instance, if I loaded a +5 bullet, would the +5 bonus on attack rolls apply to each attack made as part of a Dead Shot? To me, it's essentially the same question.
They aren't the same though, the spell makes reference to the spell effect discharging after the attack, you roll multiple attacks. After the first attack roll the effect is gone.
Though I suppose the enhancement could be ruled the same way as ammunition is destroyed when it hits. With the enhancement bonus the "destruction" of the ammunition is more ambiguous, I would be more likely to allow the enhancement to work across the board even though I don't think it should.
The magic of Named Bullet only effects the target ammunition, so the question is whether or not that magic applies to one, all, or none of the attack rolls made during a Dead Shot. For instance, if I loaded a +5 bullet, would the +5 bonus on attack rolls apply to each attack made as part of a Dead Shot? To me, it's essentially the same question.They aren't the same though, the spell makes reference to the spell effect discharging after the attack, you roll multiple attacks. After the first attack roll the effect is gone.
Though I suppose the enhancement could be ruled the same way as ammunition is destroyed when it hits. With the enhancement bonus the "destruction" of the ammunition is more ambiguous, I would be more likely to allow the enhancement to work across the board even though I don't think it should.
Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger's single attack is considered to have hit.Here's the thing. The "target" of the spell is the ammunition, and takes effect when that ammunition is used to attack. In this case, an "attack" is not the same as an "attack roll". During a Dead Shot, you make multiple attack rolls as a single attack that likewise expends only a single round of ammunition. So the bullet isn't keyed to any particular attack roll, but is undeniably used to attack. It's a confusing mechanic.
Unfortunately that is something you cannot point to RAW to back up.
The effect is tied to the roll, not the bullet. Each attack adds damage, each threat diminishes the confirmation penalty, each attack counts for the possible miss of the full round action as per deadeye shot.|
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I agree with Rhatahema.
The spell states that the target of the spell is the bullet. If you then re-read the spell, replacing bullet for target in the wording it makes more sense:
You imbue the bullet with deadly accuracy against a selected creature type (and subtype for humanoids or outsiders) or a specific creature you know and can name. When used against the selected creature, the ammunition never misfires and is unaffected by concealment (but not total concealment), and at a range of 30 feet or less, the attack targets the selected creature's touch AC. When the bullet hits the selected creature, you must overcome that creature's spell resistance, or this spell has no effect. A normal hit scored using the bullet against the selected creature is considered to be a critical threat and deals 1 extra point of damage per caster level (maximum 20), which is not multiplied on a critical hit. A natural critical hit deals the same extra damage, but that damage is multiplied due to the critical.
Once the bullet is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.
(target replaced with bullet where used as a noun)
Once the bullet is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged.
Bolded parts are pertinent for the spell effect, sure it is one single bullet doing the damage. But the effect doesn't care, it is looking for the next attack to resolve, successful or not. The moment you roll that first attack (which is a touch AC as per the spell) the effect works its magic and discharges. This leaves the following attacks to be determined normally.
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Until the bullet is fired, it cannot be used to attack. Otherwise you would stop all future attacks rolls in dead shot with this under the following:
Unlike other types of ammunition, firearm ammunition is destroyed when it is used, and has no chance of being retrieved on a miss.
Since once the bullet it used to attack, it is destroyed.
If the spell is discharged on the first attack, then the bullet was used to attack and the bullet has been destroyed? What do the other attack rolls represent then?
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Dead shot is kind of like Perfect Strike feat plus some. If a zen archer had a named bullet arrow and used the perfect strike feat to shoot it, would the spell be consumed on the first attack roll (hit or miss) or the second (hit or miss)? Or would the spell be consumed when the arrow hit?
Let say that he gets the following vs an AC of 15
First attack roll totals 12
Second attack roll totals 18
He would hit the target due to perfect strike giving him a second roll, but per your reading the spell would go off on the first roll (the missed one). Even though the arrow would not be fired until the second roll.
you can view Dead Shot as the shot being fired at the end of the full round action using the best attack roll made by the gunslinger during that action and getting bonuses in damage for each that meets or beats the AC of the target.
Dead shot is specifically a single attack. One attack. Named Bullet refers to an attack, not an attack roll.
Alright because repeating myself ad nauseum isn't a good way to spend my time, do you have any RAW that backs up your position that the spell effect is indeed concerned with the overall effect of up to 4 distinct attacks rolls supplying its bonus to each, instead of the normal single attack that it states it works for?
RAW:
You get the effect for one attack.
Deadeye Shot allows for multiple attacks to made, rolled up and placed into one lump sum.
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@ Happler, I already mentioned ammunition before and that I would indeed leave the possibility that the ammunition enhancements would stay active. The two aren't the same however, ammunition is destroyed when "used" is much more open than "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged."
IF the spell stated the effect is discharged when the attack is resolved the way you are looking at it might be correct RAW. The act of attacking removes the effect, hit or miss, and there are most definitely multiple attacks being resolved in a Deadeye Shot.
Dead shot is kind of like Perfect Strike feat plus some. If a zen archer had a named bullet arrow and used the perfect strike feat to shoot it, would the spell be consumed on the first attack roll (hit or miss) or the second (hit or miss)? Or would the spell be consumed when the arrow hit?
Let say that he gets the following vs an AC of 15
First attack roll totals 12
Second attack roll totals 18
He would hit the target due to perfect strike giving him a second roll, but per your reading the spell would go off on the first roll (the missed one). Even though the arrow would not be fired until the second roll.
you can view Dead Shot as the shot being fired at the end of the full round action using the best attack roll made by the gunslinger during that action and getting bonuses in damage for each that meets or beats the AC of the target.
If it is a different feat then the situation changes does it not? So, if they aren't the same we can't compare them to figure the other out. I'm not interested in comparing apples to oranges.
The more I read, the more I think that ammunition properties, including magical properties, should factor in to each shot, assuming it's not a an ability that specifically discharges on an attack roll. With Dead Shot, you're carefully aiming your weapon for a single attack. Making multiple attack rolls is an abstraction of that aiming process. No one attack roll is defined as the one that uses the bullet, so it'd be arbitrary to assign the properties to the first, last, or any other single attack roll. And since the attack definitely uses the ammunition, you can't disregard its properties. So applying it to each makes the most sense to me. Not sure about balance, but I think that interpretation strays the least far from the source text.
Read the post earlier about ammunition and my last post, ammunition is destroyed using different wording. The spell effect has nothing to do with the ammunition being "functional" or "destroyed" it discharges on "attack."
I was pretty much that point my second last post, then came back from leaving the house to 2 more posts than when I left :)
As I've stated repeatedly, making an attack, not the resolution of the attack is the sticking point RAW. The discharge effect is triggered on making the attack, not the resolution of what happens after the full round action is resolved. At best we can click the FAQ and hope Paizo does an FAQ.
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I was pretty much that point my second last post, then came back from leaving the house to 2 more posts than when I left :)
As I've stated repeatedly, making an attack, not the resolution of the attack is the sticking point RAW. The discharge effect is triggered on making the attack, not the resolution of what happens after the full round action is resolved. At best we can click the FAQ and hope Paizo does an FAQ.
Agreed on the FAQ.