Still I would rather not be thought of as a danger or a threat and the best way to do that is remove my self from the situation.
And if those things had happened to Skepchick you'd see zero of us defending this unnamed man. But they didn't. But that makes no difference to new feminism. He should know better than to speak to an unchaperoned woman. The cad!Really? Women needing to feel safe is a sacred cow?The idea that if the woman doesn't feel safe it must be the man's fault is: that womens feelings are ALWAYS justified.
Stop seeing an elevator as a "place where your friends can't see you fail" and rather as a "place where person B cannot escape from person A".Wrong floor. Press button. Walk out.
Grab hand. Push stop button between floors.
Or simply stand between her and the buttons.It's an enclosed space in tight quarters with no one else around. It's a dangerous situation.
Again, don't listen to me. Talk to women you know about this. Listen to what they tell you.
The problem isn't actually that he talked to her. It's that she got flak for saying she was creeped out by it. Instead of just accepting that she felt a certain way in a certain situation, she was told she was wrong for feeling that way.
Dawkins original comment:
Dear Muslima
Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.
Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so . . .
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.
Richard
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(Rebecca) Watson was at a conference in Dublin giving a presentation in which she spoke onstage about sexism, feminism/women's issues, and privilege in the atheism movement/community -- including misogynist behavior and threats of violence by atheist men toward atheist women and her specifically. She also offered observations about how male atheists could be alert for such behavior and work to support the women among them.
She explains later that after her presentation, she was then approached by a(n apparently clueless) male stranger who followed her, a lone female, onto an elevator at 4AM after she told her social group that she was retiring to her room alone. And then missing the point of her presentation earlier -- that women don't like to be constantly sexualized -- he propositioned her. She politely declined and that was apparently the end of it of the encounter. She didn't belittle him and certainly didn't call him a potential rapist; she just said it was inappropriate.
She then received comments from numerous atheists, almost entirely male, completely dismissing her and the account, including demands for her to make a retraction and apologize. Including Dawkins (1, 2), the dude who sat right next to her on the Dublin panel while she gave her presentation. When even motherf@@#ing Dawkins doesn't f$!~ing get it, what else is she supposed to do?!
And when she and others split off to form a supportive atheism community, it (and she) are again dismissed. Repeatedly. Like right in this thread for example.
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And guys, describe her scenario to a couple women in your life... alone, in a foreign country, after giving a talk about men's threats of violence to her and other women, to be followed onto an elevator by a complete stranger who corners her and starts hitting on her.
He didn't approach her downstairs; he waited until she was isolated in an elevator with him.
At 4AM.
He doesn't know or stop to think that elevators don't magically & immediately let you stop the ride and exit, or that such egress can be prevented.
Especially by someone who probably outweighs her and is stronger than her by a clear advantage.
And he didn't pick up a clue from the topic of her talk.
He doesn't even stop to think about the odds for physical violence and rape a women faces. Almost every. Damn. Day.
.
Ask you women friends, girlfriends, spouses, sisters, mothers... ask them and listen if they wouldn't feel threatened too. And then ask them how they'd feel when they'd try to tell someone, and their account was dismissed and ridiculed, accompanied by more threats.
ASK THEM.
And then missing the point of her presentation earlier -- that women don't like to be constantly sexualized -- he propositioned her. She politely declined and that was apparently the end of it of the encounter. She didn't belittle him and certainly didn't call him a potential rapist; she just said it was inappropriate.
Inaccurate. Let's do better.
He got on the elevator with her, not "followed her", because that's the exact misinterpretation that leads to thinking he was stalking.What the man said, in her own words, was: "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and i would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
She goes on to say this made her feel "creeped out" and sexualized. But..assuming that he wanted to have sex with her is precisely the kind of blatant sexism that she should know better than to partake in. Because he's a guy, he's a rapist? Women can't be rapists (or creepy)?! Ad nauseum.
Some people started saying, politely I might add, that they don't think telling someone who you saw speak at a conference that they are interesting and you'd like to talk to them is sexualizing in any way shape or form, regardless of the venue. This was a conference. People gather in hotel rooms after hours for conversations. It is de rigeur.
These people? The ones who posited that, hey, maybe he didn't mean it that way? They're verbally bashed on the internet for being mysogynists themselves, sexist, rape apologists, etc etc.
Yes, there were, in the flurry, some horrible things said to this woman that no person should say. What Dawkins said? Not one of those things. I laughed out loud when I read his post.
TL;DR- this guy didn't proposition anyone unless you're willing to assume that all that any men wants is to rape every women they find interesting, we can't know his mind. Thinking that we should apply the same standards to women as to men, in other words not making assumptions about their mind, their abilities, their motives, their beliefs, treating them as default equals is not misogyny. It's feminism. Or at least it was.
And guys, describe her scenario to a couple women in your life... alone, in a foreign country, after giving a talk about men's threats of violence to her and other women, to be followed onto an elevator by a complete stranger who corners her and starts hitting on her.
He didn't approach her downstairs; he waited until she was isolated in an elevator with him.
At 4AM.
He doesn't know or stop to think that elevators don't magically & immediately let you stop the ride and exit, or that such egress can be prevented.
Especially by someone who probably outweighs her and is stronger than her by a clear advantage.
Wow.
Ok, asserting that he "waited" to talk to her and "followed" her into the elevator? No evidence whatsoever of that happening so let's stop lying, eh?No, he doesn't stop to think yadda yadda, because he has no reason to. He's not a rapist. Her fears of him raping her are therefore irrational. Are we to tailor our behavior so that the most irrational among us cannot possibly misconstrue the most benign of actions? There's not enough rubber padding in all the world.
"Probably outweighs her and is stronger" how very sexist of you. Let's make assumptions about his build because he's male. Would it be different if he were effeminate? How about a dwarf? How about in a wheelchair? Nope, sorry, by virtue of being born with a penis you have to take extra precautions so no one thinks you're going to rape you. You have to start every conversation with "I'm not going to rape you!!! Would you like fries with that?" really?
The "don't take this the wrong way" part, that wasn't maybe him being polite and trying to make sure she didn't, ya know, think he was a rapist?
Oh, but that's just what a rapist WOULD say...
I'm sorry Meatrace, but you just don't get it. I don't mean that as a judgment on your character. Clearly there is just a breakdown somewhere between my (and her) explanation and your (and others) ability to unpack/process what we are saying/trying to say from our own experiences.
I would still ask you to ask the women in your life how they would handle it. Don't just presume to know their reactions, actually ask them.
I'm sorry Meatrace, but you just don't get it. I don't mean that as a judgment on your character. Clearly there is just a breakdown somewhere between my (and her) explanation and your (and others) ability to unpack/process what we are saying/trying to say from our own experiences.
I would still ask you to ask the women in your life how they would handle it. Don't just presume to know their reactions, actually ask them.
Nono, I understand that point. And I understand why she would think the way she does...but the way she is thinking is the precise sort of unfair sexist assumption that we should all be striving not to make.
I'm just also able to see it from the perspective of a guy. A guy who, with almost certainty, is not a rapist or a misogynist or a sexist or anything of the sort, since the majority of us out there aren't. In fact he seemed to be cognizant of it by the way he approached her. Asking someone whom you find interesting if they want to have a conversation is, by definition, the polar opposite of sexual objectification. He invited her to his room because, duh, they were at a hotel at 4am. Where else they going to go?
The suggestion that, hey, he was probably an okay guy and just a little obtuse, is not misogyny!
Well, I tried to explain it. I'm not calling anyone a Schrödinger Rapist. I don't claim to know what goes on in a guy's thoughts. I'm pretty sure most of the guys in this thread are pretty decent well-intentioned human beings.
But that's not my point.
Women don't know most of time who the bad guys are. We women all know the stats for harassment, for threats, for actual violence against women. We know those stats are usually under-reported, and too often, dismissed when reported. We're usually smaller with less upper body strength. We live in a predominantly male-dominated society where women are objectified routinely and everyday.
I'm not blaming anyone here for the situation. I'm saying it royally sucks to experience this on a daily basis. Having guys then just dismiss the experience, deny it exists, or turn it around and blame women is just the s&+*ty sprinkles on top of the s&!$ty cupcake. Worse, it completely shuts down the communication from both sides.
So nothing gets fixed, nothing changes, and none of us understand each other.
Maybe here's what you're not getting.
No one is denying those things happen.
No one is saying Skepchick was wrong for declining the invitation, or denying that he was probably a little inappropriate to suggest a non-neutral venue for a chit chat.
The question to me is whether this entirely benign, totally polite, and unpressed invitation by a stranger constitutes "sexual objectification". I can't see that. And when I say "hey...I think he might have just wanted to talk to you" I'm called a misogynist.
What gives?
So, I'm not denying that bad things happen, I'm denying that this situation was a bad thing. A guy talked to a girl on an elevator and, in all likelihood, they both felt a little uncomfortable (being strangers, if for no other reason). No one can explain to me why that's misogyny.
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The suggestion that, hey, he was probably an okay guy and just a little obtuse, is not misogyny!
It's not and I'm not trying to claim it is.
But at the same time, living in a culture where rape is often a joke, women are objectified and rape happens quite a lot, it's not completely outrageous to be a little nervous, alone with a man at 4am when he might be propositioning her for sex.
Sometimes women are subjected to abuse for rebuffing a man. Just telling him "no" isn't a guarantee that she'll be left alone, sometimes it incites rage and being stuck in an enclosed space and having to say no means there is less chance to escape if things do go bad.
Is he allowed to proposition her (whether he was or not)? yes
Is she allowed to be creeped out by it? yes
Should she be put down for having that feeling? no
The actual proposition (whether it was or not) wasn't misogynistic. It was the vitriol and hate that came when she talked about it. And it came from a community that tries to champion rationality.
Well, I tried to explain it. I'm not calling anyone a Schrödinger Rapist. I don't claim to know what goes on in a guy's thoughts. I'm pretty sure most of the guys in this thread are pretty decent well-intentioned human beings.
But that's not my point.
Women don't know most of time who the bad guys are. We women all know the stats for harassment, for threats, for actual violence against women. We know those stats are usually under-reported, and too often, dismissed when reported. We're usually smaller with less upper body strength. We live in a predominantly male-dominated society where women are objectified routinely and everyday.
I'm not blaming anyone here for the situation. I'm saying it royally sucks to experience this on a daily basis. Having guys then just dismiss the experience, deny it exists, or turn it around and blame women is just the s&$@ty sprinkles on top of the s&#~ty cupcake. Worse, it completely shuts down the communication from both sides.
So nothing gets fixed, nothing changes, and none of us understand each other.
I am not dismissing you at all, the fact that my sharing an elevator with you causes you to be afraid of me is enough for me say I will get the next elivator rather than make you afraid.
The guy that spoke with Rebecca would probably be horrified he caused Rebecca to either feel sexualised, threatened or trivialised as even if his intent was to build a romantic rather than an academic relationship with Rebecca... Any of those feelings he engendered would be counterproductive.
The easiest thing to do is let women take the iniative. Take note that you are perceived as a threat and minimise it.
Well, I tried to explain it. I'm not calling anyone a Schrödinger Rapist. I don't claim to know what goes on in a guy's thoughts. I'm pretty sure most of the guys in this thread are pretty decent well-intentioned human beings.
But that's not my point.
Women don't know most of time who the bad guys are. We women all know the stats for harassment, for threats, for actual violence against women. We know those stats are usually under-reported, and too often, dismissed when reported. We're usually smaller with less upper body strength. We live in a predominantly male-dominated society where women are objectified routinely and everyday.
I'm not blaming anyone here for the situation. I'm saying it royally sucks to experience this on a daily basis. Having guys then just dismiss the experience, deny it exists, or turn it around and blame women is just the s&$@ty sprinkles on top of the s&#~ty cupcake. Worse, it completely shuts down the communication from both sides.
So nothing gets fixed, nothing changes, and none of us understand each other.
I am not dismissing you at all, the fact that my sharing an elevator with you causes you to be afraid of me is enough for me say I will get the next elivator rather than make you afraid.
The guy that spoke with Rebecca would probably be horrified he caused Rebecca to either feel sexualised, threatened or trivialised as even if his intent was to build a romantic rather than an academic relationship with Rebecca... Any of those feelings he engendered would be counterproductive.
The easiest thing to do is let women take the iniative. Take note that you are perceived as a threat and minimise it.
This is still an overreaction. You aren't being respectful, you're putting them on a pedestal. You're treating them like scared, little girls instead of treating them like women.
Sometimes as a guy, you might come across as a little creepy. Live, learn and move on. If you weren't trying to be a creep, you know it's not a judgment on you, but rather an opportunity to learn.
Sometimes I post flippant remarks that make me look like a jerk. That doesn't mean I stop posting. It means I just learn to watch what I say and how I say it a little more closely.
...The suggestion that, hey, he was probably an okay guy and just a little obtuse, is not misogyny!
No one called the guy (or you) a misogynist. Maybe he is, maybe not. Maybe you are, maybe not. His and your character isn't the f#@%ing point, because women aren't f!&!ing mind readers.
By his behaviors in that situation and circumstances, his behavior was unwelcome, possibly threatening. You may not like it, but that's the way the world currently is and works. A woman doesn't know a man's thoughts and intentions. All she can do is react to his actions and her environment, and try to make the safest choices. And when she tries to advise guys that "hey, please don't do this because -reasons-" she shouldn't be dismissed or mocked or f%%#ing threatened.
...The question to me is whether this entirely benign, totally polite, and unpressed invitation by a stranger constitutes "sexual objectification". I can't see that. And when I say "hey...I think he might have just wanted to talk to you" I'm called a misogynist...
And this brings us back to the "don't get it" part. Sexual objectification of women (and yes, to a much lesser extent, men too) permeates our culture like oxygen in the air. I'm not exaggerating when I say: Every. Damn. Day. Women perpetrate it, buy into it, support it too. Every. Damn. Day. To be reminded that your most valuable assets are to be attractive and a suitable mate. Every. Damn. Day. Drilled into your head from your earliest memories as a little girl. Hopefully you can find ways to limit it, by controlling as many aspects of your life, the people around you, your job, where you life, how you present/comport yourself... but you never eliminate it, never silence it completely, never can completely shield the other women in your life from it.
Every. Damn. Day.
So you get an opportunity to stand with respected peers and say "Hey, this sucks. But we're rational, we don't have to buy into this crap. We can be better." And then... the cycle repeats in an elevator with a dude who heard you speak but once again just didn't get the message.
Meatrace, unless the woman is sending clear signals that she's interested, she ain't interested. And at 4AM in the morning, after announcing that she was tired and going to sleep... she's really just tired and wants to sleep. And if she's stuck with a dude on an elevator, heading to bed, at 4AM, and he asks her for coffee... we both know drinking Sanka isn't on the dude's mind.
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It's surprising to me how many guys don't realize how intimidating they are to solo women. I have gotten off elevators on the wrong floor when I was alone and a man got on. I'd rather take another. I get nervous when I am in the store alone and a man (or men) enter the place. And at 4 a.m.? I'd be a basket case inside my head if you (a guy) were simply there in a hotel elevator with me. I'd probably let you get off the elevator first, so you couldn't follow me. And if you got out first on my floor, I'd ride the elevator back to the lobby then back to that floor to avoid being alone in the hallway with you. And if you asked me to your room for coffee in an elevator at 4 a.m., I'd be waiting for the knife or gun to appear.
It doesn't matter how nice you seem or how polite you are or any of those things. It's simply a matter of prudence. I am not a scared little girl, but I do know that you can most likely overpower me, and that man on woman violence is common, and that it happens sometimes in the least likely and most public places. I was raised to think defensively, because that is how girls are taught, so I realize I'm vulnerable. It makes me less likely to take stupid chances. I do not want to become a statistic.
So yes, you as a strange man simply asking me to coffee in your room when we were alone in a hotel elevator at 4 a.m. would make me very afraid, even if you were as nice as pie.
EDIT: Interestingly, this article was put up on a friend's facebook not ten minutes ago. I believe her. Do you? If not, you should. Because that's how a woman alone lives.
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I just hope that the female side of the discussion can also appreciate that it sucks to be constantly viewed as a potential rapist or violent offender because some of our gender are douche bags and a$+@%*$s, and that it's also a bit insulting to be told by women that "well, that's just how it is, learn to live with it - we reserve the right to judge you by the actions of others who are total strangers to you."
If that is the default position, then nothing is ever going to be changed, not by anyone here nor by the Atheism Plus women.
It's a terrible situation, really. You know perfectly well that you wouldn't "do that" (whatever 'that' might be), but we don't. And the consequences of us relaxing and trusting that you're a right guy could be dire. I'm perfectly happy to socialize with men in public venues, but I will be nervous when isolated, at least with a stranger.
We do get that same attitude in other situations. If I see a child fall and cry, I want to pick them up and help them, but can't, because the parent might think I'm a horrible person who wants to hurt or steal their child. I'm not. But such things have happened enough that that's the perception of anybody who tries to touch, hug, comfort, or aid a lost or hurting child. But because of that - I don't do it!
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I just hope that the female side of the discussion can also appreciate that it sucks to be constantly viewed as a potential rapist or violent offender because some of our gender are douche bags and a#$&$&!s, and that it's also a bit insulting to be told by women that "well, that's just how it is, learn to live with it - we reserve the right to judge you by the actions of others who are total strangers to you."
If that is the default position, then nothing is ever going to be changed, not by anyone here nor by the Atheism Plus women.
Yeah, I imagine it must suck royally too to be on the other side of the fence, presumed guilty for a crime you've never even considered, let alone attempted.
I don't mean to accuse anyone here of being the bad guy. I'm not trying to play some victimhood/"oh woe is us" card.
So guys, you now know women don't like to feel this way, and you certainly don't like to feel like you're being accused of something you haven't/won't do. We all agree it sucks things are the way they are, and that many women feel the need for designated women-safe communities... but this isn't written in stone. We all can work together to change it, even if it's only just in the atheism community. The questions are: how do we change it, and do we have the will?
I just hope that the female side of the discussion can also appreciate that it sucks to be constantly viewed as a potential rapist or violent offender because some of our gender are douche bags and a~**#~+s, and that it's also a bit insulting to be told by women that "well, that's just how it is, learn to live with it - we reserve the right to judge you by the actions of others who are total strangers to you."
If that is the default position, then nothing is ever going to be changed, not by anyone here nor by the Atheism Plus women.
It's not the women's fault though. It's those douchbags that attack and rape. Don't get mad at women. Get mad at men who act like asshats. If we reduce their number, we'll all look better.
Here's a guy, talking about how we can raise our boys better.
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Let me give you a glimpse into the other side of the looking glass.
From kindergarten up males are told that their value is based on their physical strength, their aptitude in sports, their ability to get a good paying job to provide for their family and very little else.
We are shown images Every. Damn. Day. of this exact paradigm. We're also shown and told precisely how useless we are compared to women. Ever watch ANY sitcom EVER? Is there ever an incompetent female paired with a competent male? Or is it the dumb, bumbling idiot of a man who's lucky to have any mate at all? Women are the smart ones, the pragmatists, and the men are the ones who f+~& everything up and keep secrets.
Every. Damn. Day. I'm shown by the media how completely useless I must be. Men are either completely useless sacks of crap OR hyper macho alpha males with perfect six-pack abs.
If you are a guy and you don't have a job you're a bum. What's that? You have a child and your wife works while you watch him/her? You're not a real man. You don't know how to fix a car? Not a real man. Don't watch sports? Not a real man.
I don't post this to be in any way downgrading your struggle. Just understand that there are equal pressures in being a man and how our society defines being a man.
There are pressures, but do you think they're coming from the people being raped? The people being paid less for doing the same jobs? No, that pressure is coming from other men. Women might fall in line, but even in this day in age, men still control most things. Men control most of the money. Most politicians are men. When congress was first holding hearings on women's health coverage, is was men talking to other men about what should be done.
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Here's a guy, talking about how we can raise our boys better.
As an addendum to my post. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Men have every drop of the ridiculous expectations and objectifications to live through that women do. The difference is that there isn't a movement to chronicle our struggle.
There are pressures, but do you think they're coming from the people being raped? The people being paid less for doing the same jobs? No, that pressure is coming from other men. Women might fall in line, but even in this day in age, men still control most things. Men control most of the money. Most politicians are men. When congress was first holding hearings on women's health coverage, is was men talking to other men about what should be done.
Except that you're wrong.
Because women still control their own sexuality. And men will comport with whatever they think will get them laid.But it doesn't matter, in the end, where the pressures come from. I have felt plenty of pressure from women to act or be a certain way, looks and behavior, because of my sex. Yes, every day. But the point is that it's not any less difficult, in the realm of social pressures, to be a female.
Also, you act like men can't be raped.
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You have to start every conversation "I'm not going to rape you!!! Would you like fries with that?" really?
Wait, why are you starting a conversation asking if she wants fries? And with what?
As an aside, I think I'm going to try that. I've always been socially awkward and I think opening conversations by informing them I'm not going to rape them will really put people at ease.
As an addendum to my post. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Men have every drop of the ridiculous expectations and objectifications to live through that women do. The difference is that there isn't a movement to chronicle our struggle.
Here's a guy, talking about how we can raise our boys better.
I'm with you on that part, but the problem isn't women. The problem is other men.
Just an observation.
Feminism in the 60s and 70s was about equality of the sexes. It was about how women can be as smart and tough as a man, and that the sexes are by default equals. Women shouldn't be singled out or given special privileges or responsibilities, and neither should men.
Feminism now says you shouldn't talk to a woman in an elevator, if you're walking down the road you should cross the street away from the woman, you shouldn't approach them alone, we must understand that they are delicate and smaller and meeker than men, etc. (yes these are all things said by posters defending Skepchick in the wake of this fracas). On the surface, this looks like a HUGE step backwards. Hell, this looks positively Victorian in its sexual mores.
What the deuce, ladies?
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Yeah, I can emphasize, Meatrace, even if I've never personally experienced male pressures to conform, to excel at "masculinity." And while this is nothing new, I'm sure it's gone up an order of magnitude with the rise of media and the Internet. I remember my brothers Star Wars and G.I.Joe hand-me-down figures, versus the steroid-infused versions my nephews play with these days. I may not know what it really feels like to walk in your shoes, but I can empathize.
So again, we all agree that both sides of the fence apparently sucks. And again I ask, how do we change it? Ignore the rest of society... how do we change it in the atheism community?
There are pressures, but do you think they're coming from the people being raped? The people being paid less for doing the same jobs? No, that pressure is coming from other men. Women might fall in line, but even in this day in age, men still control most things. Men control most of the money. Most politicians are men. When congress was first holding hearings on women's health coverage, is was men talking to other men about what should be done.Except that you're wrong.
Because women still control their own sexuality. And men will comport with whatever they think will get them laid.But it doesn't matter, in the end, where the pressures come from. I have felt plenty of pressure from women to act or be a certain way, looks and behavior, because of my sex. Yes, every day. But the point is that it's not any less difficult, in the realm of social pressures, to be a female.
Also, you act like men can't be raped.
I'm not. But for me, it keeps feeling like you're resistant to the idea that women are still disadvantaged. If you want to talk about this stuff, I'm cool with that. But when people push the idea of common false accusations or any b!$#$+&@ like that, sure it happens anecdotally, but there are far fewer than 200,000 men falsely accused every year. It sucks when it happens and we need to find ways to prevent it, but at the same time the current system allows 97% of rapists to go free.
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I'm with you on that part, but the problem isn't women. The problem is other men.As an addendum to my post. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Men have every drop of the ridiculous expectations and objectifications to live through that women do. The difference is that there isn't a movement to chronicle our struggle.
Here's a guy, talking about how we can raise our boys better.
I'd buy that, if I hadn't been repeatedly emasculated and sexually rejected by women for not being strong enough, tough enough, "alpha" enough. For not showing my peacock feathers. I've been told to shut up and stop crying, "be a man!" by women who were my workplace peers (I just found out my grandfather had died!). I could go on.
And when the problem is the media, the media is genderless. Blaming men and only men for the social pressures placed on men is no different than blaming women for their side. It's like saying "well it's not men's fault because cosmo is run by a woman!" It's disingenuous and unfair.
Feminism now says you shouldn't talk to a woman in an elevator, if you're walking down the road you should cross the street away from the woman, you shouldn't approach them alone, we must understand that they are delicate and smaller and meeker than men, etc. (yes these are all things said by posters defending Skepchick in the wake of this fracas). On the surface, this looks like a HUGE step backwards. Hell, this looks positively Victorian in its sexual mores.
What the deuce, ladies?
Wait, you're blaming this on Feminism? Seriously? {boggles}
Yeah, we have a difference of opinion. I do think a lot of women are complicit with the social structure, but I like to avoid blaming those who are lower on the pyramid. Like how I don't blame african-americans for racism, even when they are responsible for participating in institutionalized and internalized forms of it.
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Wait, you're blaming this on Feminism? Seriously? {boggles}Feminism now says you shouldn't talk to a woman in an elevator, if you're walking down the road you should cross the street away from the woman, you shouldn't approach them alone, we must understand that they are delicate and smaller and meeker than men, etc. (yes these are all things said by posters defending Skepchick in the wake of this fracas). On the surface, this looks like a HUGE step backwards. Hell, this looks positively Victorian in its sexual mores.
What the deuce, ladies?
I'm blaming it on a new morality masquerading as feminism.
When women who want to be considered feminists say that men should know better than to talk to an unchaperoned woman in public, and should walk on the other side of the street to signify he's not a rapist, that's no longer feminism because it's demanding an unequal responsibility.
Yeah, we have a difference of opinion. I do think a lot of women are complicit with the social structure, but I like to avoid blaming those who are lower on the pyramid. Like how I don't blame african-americans for racism, even when they are responsible for participating in institutionalized and internalized forms of it.
...but you're happy to blame the institutional social pressures to comport to an unrealistic ideal of masculinity on "men" rather than society at large? Or are you rethinking that assertion?
I'm not. But for me, it keeps feeling like you're resistant to the idea that women are still disadvantaged.
Not at all! I think we're slowly approaching parity in the sexes but it's a long-term goal, all I can control is my own behavior and my own vote. I don't think it's as off-balance as some here seem to think. I think there absolutely is a tendency for some women to blame the male-orientation of society for stuff that men would file under "life sucks".
I just think it's every bit unfair that women sometimes fear being raped and that men have to endure being thought of as a rapist when they're not.
I'm more responding to the specific situation and "elevatorgate" fracas. And for the record, yes, people who think that Skepchick wasn't being "sexually objectified" in that elevator (the nerve!) were called misogynists by Skepchick. That's not a term to throw around lightly.
Yeah, I think the guy's choice of timing was bad. Having bad timing is just that, it isn't the equivalent of rape.
I think the real problem was when people responded to her blog, where she said it made her uncomfortable, and told her that she was wrong, or worse, threatened to rape her.
Really, the whole thing should have just been a learning moment for any guy who might think about hitting on women in a situation where they were literally cornered. Everything else was just overreaction and then it turned into horrible things being said.
Edit: to add, it wasn't the elevator incident itself that was revealing about sexism present in atheist spheres.
It was the reaction to her blog post that showed it.
Wait, you're blaming this on Feminism? Seriously? {boggles}I'm blaming it on a new morality masquerading as feminism.
When women who want to be considered feminists say that men should know better than to talk to an unchaperoned woman in public, and should walk on the other side of the street to signify he's not a rapist, that's no longer feminism because it's demanding an unequal responsibility.
What I'm trying (unsuccessfully I must assume) to convey is that are certain behaviors in certain situations that are unwelcome, or even threatening. That women really don't want to be approached for sexual encounters by strangers throughout the day. That statistics of violence, verbal and physical, often make women second- and triple-guess men's behavior. That no matter how unrealistic and s!$%ty society's pressures are on men -- and I emphasize, it does sound like it sucks -- that doesn't make it ok to take it out physically or verbally on women (hell, or on other men either).
I get it Meatrace. It sucks. It sucks for you, it sucks for me. But the game of trying to be the bigger victim doesn't have any damn winners. You live with unrealistic expectations and pressures, and you've been treated badly by women in the past. I may not have experienced your life, but I can empathize. Sincerely. But I can't fix or undo the bad experiences that have happened to you. That probably reads as somewhat dismissive on the screen, but I don't intend it that way. It's just a fact: without intervention via a TARDIS or Mr. Fusion-powered DeLorean, it's unchangeable. Just as everyone's past is.
So... How do I and women make the system better for all of us, men and women? How do we remove or at least lesson unrealistic roles and expectations for everyone? How do we remove the fear of violence and the acts of violence -- including emotional violence against men too -- from within the atheism community?
Yeah, I think the guy's choice of timing was bad. Having bad timing is just that, it isn't the equivalent of rape.
I think the real problem was when people responded to her blog, where she said it made her uncomfortable, and told her that she was wrong, or worse, threatened to rape her.
Really, the whole thing should have just been a learning moment for any guy who might think about hitting on women in a situation where they were literally cornered. Everything else was just overreaction and then it turned into horrible things being said.
Edit: to add, it wasn't the elevator incident itself that was revealing about sexism present in atheist spheres.
It was the reaction to her blog post that showed it.
Barring the people who said they were going to rape her (and I needn't remind you there were people threatening to castrate and kill Dawkins) the response was a polite "huh? I don't think you know what sexual objectification is".
Will you agree that disagreeing with her claim (that someone talking to her in an elevator is an act of sexual objectification) isn't misogyny? That's all I'm trying to get at. The discourse on the 'feminist' side of things got real ugly real fast. Up to and including my previous example of any man worth his salt crossing the road so as not to cause a lone woman undue stress. That's bullying and it's the very opposite of what a freethinking skeptic should do. It's absolute hogwash. Being a feminist is something I've always taken pride in even when the term wasn't popular or 'cool'.
In fact, in that situation, alone at night walking down the street, I might even say hi to the woman. That doesn't make me a misogynyst!
...I just think it's every bit unfair that women sometimes fear being raped and that men have to endure being thought of as a rapist when they're not...
Maybe it was just unfortunate phrasing, but do you really mean your statement the way it was worded?
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So... How do I and women make the system better for all of us, men and women? How do we remove or at least lesson unrealistic roles and expectations for everyone? How do we remove the fear of violence and the acts of violence -- including emotional violence against men too -- from within the atheism community?
International proletarian socialist revolution. Duh.
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So... How do I and women make the system better for all of us, men and women? How do we remove or at least lesson unrealistic roles and expectations for everyone? How do we remove the fear of violence and the acts of violence -- including emotional violence against men too -- from within the atheism community?
Beats me, but I'd imagine the first step is being honest about what constitutes sexism and misogyny. Even propositioning someone in an elevator doesn't rise to the term. Certainly disagreeing on the internet doesn't either.
I know this will sound 'sexist' but I think a large part of the solution has to be thicker skin. There's no way to live in a bubble away from every bit of badthink out in the world. If it isn't actual physical violence, we should all learn to not be injured by thoughts and words.
It's not a solution because there is no solution to the problem of "people are dicks". You just need to be dickproof.
...I just think it's every bit unfair that women sometimes fear being raped and that men have to endure being thought of as a rapist when they're not...Maybe it was just unfortunate phrasing, but do you really mean your statement the way it was worded?
Yes, and please reparse it.
It's far more unfair that women are raped. But that's not what I'm saying.But by a pretty huge margin, day in and day out, women manage not to be raped. It sucks that something that's pretty astronomically unlikely to happen to you today still causes you to feel fear. It also sucks that something I will never do, ever, in your mind causes you to see me perpetually as a threat to your person when I've done and will do nothing to warrant such fear.
It's incredibly saddening to think that people are afraid of me for something I'd never in a thousand lifetimes do, but rather than feel insulted (which I think I have the right to be, TBH) I just feel sad.
Just statistically, I think the chances of you being raped in a given day are the same that any given man will rape in a given day. Assuming one rapist per rape. The odds of you not being raped and having wasted all that energy fearing it are precisely the same as Joe X being feared as a rapist and not getting around to earning that fear.
Will you agree that disagreeing with her claim (that someone talking to her in an elevator is an act of sexual objectification) isn't misogyny? That's all I'm trying to get at.
No, the act of talking to someone in an elevator is not sexual objectification.
What I do think is a sneaky form of misogyny, is telling her that she had no right to feel uncomfortable in that situation, regardless of his true intent. It doesn't matter if he was trying to have sex with her or not.
She was cornered in a tiny room by a man and asked to go to his room.
Because men can act unpredictably sometimes, women are afraid just by being asked.
It's incredibly saddening to think that people are afraid of me for something I'd never in a thousand lifetimes do, but rather than feel insulted (which I think I have the right to be, TBH) I just feel sad.
Thank you for articulating that for me.
If anyone is keeping score, I officially give up, Meatrace.