Hello!
so, I got a couple of questions on Attacks of Opportunity.
I have a first lvl fighter using a reach weapon. If a enemy comes at me I get an AOO. I then decide to sunder his armor or trip him or disarm him.
Do I get an AOO against me if I do not have any improved feats for those actions?
thanks guys
Ok If I do not have reach and I make a disarm,trip,sunder attemp on a AOO I then would get an AOO against myself.
And the AOO against me would happen when? After my attack? So If I succed in the trip I would not get an AOO but If i dont I get an aoo?
get where im going?
lol
AOOs always happen directly before the action that triggers it.
Interesting question... Can an AoO trigger an AoO? That's never come up in one of our games before O.o
Interested to see the opinions!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is complicated, so I'd appreciate any corrections. Let's say that someone who is next to you tries to trip you, and they don't have Improved Trip. So you get an AoO against them with your flail, and decide to use it to try to trip them. But you don't have Improved Trip either, so they get an AoO against you. And they decide to use it to disarm you; and let's just say that either they have Improved Disarm, or you don't have Combat Reflexes (because otherwise this would get ridiculous).
So, resolving backwards, it turns out that they disarmed you. But you still get your trip attempt; you just don't get to use your flail's trip property to keep from getting tripped on a failure, because you're not holding it anymore. (You still get your +1 to hit from bless, but not your +1 to hit from Weapon Focus (flail).) And it turns out that you fail big time, so now you're tripped instead. And then your opponent finally gets his chance to try to trip you -- that started this whole thing -- but you're already prone, so it's wasted.
Oh! But now it's your turn, so you can try to trip him -- albeit with a -4 to hit, since it's in place of a melee attack -- and of course you'd trigger an AoO... But hey! At least if you stood up, they wouldn't be able to keep you down with a trip attempt on the AoO; that's because it would resolve before you stood up, therefore taking place while you were still prone (and not preventing the standing).
Clear as mud?
(because otherwise this would get ridiculous)
Ya think? This is pretty much the reason why characters get improved/greater combat maneuvers. So they don't have to deal with a headache like that, and keep things simple and smooth.
One thing I do like about Fredrik's example is that it lists Combat Reflexes as an advantageous feat to obtain should you somehow fall into that cluster**** of a situation, and the opponent does not; because your attempt would still occur first.
I do have to say, the visual of seeing that all occur (especially on the concept of multiple AOO actions from lack of Improved Combat Maneuver feats) would be like watching lightning strike across the sky multiple times over.
I forgot if it was or not, but is sunder allowed with the AoO?
From what I can read a sunder would be allowed.
page 199 states that you can use combat maneuvers except for things like charge that have certain prerequisites
|
Yes, but it doesn't work. The AoO goes off before your maneuver check, and any damage from the attack becomes a penalty to your maneuver check.
Hi TriOmegaZero. I don't recall seeing the rule that the damage from an AAO attack becomes a penalty on the original maneuver check. Would you mind posting a link to the PRD or SRD for it?
Perhaps you are referring to concentration checks when casting a spell while being damaged...?
Maybe this should be in the Rules Questions forum.
I've thought that AOO's could ONLY be melee attacks from this wording in the SRD:
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
Yes, but it doesn't work. The AoO goes off before your maneuver check, and any damage from the attack becomes a penalty to your maneuver check.Hi TriOmegaZero. I don't recall seeing the rule that the damage from an AAO attack becomes a penalty on the original maneuver check. Would you mind posting a link to the PRD or SRD for it?
Perhaps you are referring to concentration checks when casting a spell while being damaged...?
When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
Odraude, dude.. I never read that part before.
Thanks man for teaching me something.
I gotta re-read the entire combat section a couple times through. I am still new to the system.
Maybe this should be in the Rules Questions forum.
I've thought that AOO's could ONLY be melee attacks from this wording in the SRD:
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
There are options listed in the respective combat maneuvers that those maneuverss can be substituted in exchange of a single attack from an attack or full attack option.
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
Combat Reflexes allows characters to take more than 1 attack of opportunity per round, up to their Dex modifier in attacks, and allows attacks of opportunity while flat-footed; which is something I majorly overlooked. I'll bring this up to my GM during a more appropriate situation...
It's what I do.
Now to look at Overhand Chop
*tentacles away into the sunset*
I overlooked that as wekk darksol.
That is kinda a big one taking AOO when flat footed.
You can attempt to (insert combat maneuver) your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Cool.
Grizzly the Archer & NullVOID: The way I read it, you wouldn't be able to sunder on an AoO, since sunder has to be part of an attack action.
Darksol the Painbringer: Combat Reflexes allows you to take up to one + Dex mod AoOs per round; so a guy with 14 or 15 Dex could take three.
Grizzly the Archer & NullVOID: The way I read it, you wouldn't be able to sunder on an AoO, since sunder has to be part of an attack action.
Darksol the Painbringer: Combat Reflexes allows you to take up to one + Dex mod AoOs per round; so a guy with 14 or 15 Dex could take three.
I'm glad you caught that one for me...you must have a lot of ranks in Perception. (Either that, or I just rolled bad.)
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus.
Now I know I can make 3 attacks of opportunity in a given round instead of 2 with my 14 Dex Fighter. Thanks a bunch dude. :)
I'm glad I hopped on these forums, since it has shown me multiple (reasonable) interpretations and arguments for rulings, as well as re-evaluate feats to get their proper benefits.
|
|
Grizzly the Archer & NullVOID: The way I read it, you wouldn't be able to sunder on an AoO, since sunder has to be part of an attack action.
An Attack of Opportunity is an attack action, so you can use t to sunder. LINK.
@RedDogMT: JJ is not one of the rules guys. He's a lot closer to them than I am; but I have a copy of the CRB right here next to me that I can read for myself. When I disagree with him -- which is frequently -- I go with my own interpretation, not his. This has been debated on these boards for ages, positions have been taken, and I don't expect to change anyone's mind. This is just my explanation for why I read it the way I do... aaaaand after posting, I noticed that I'm in the Advice forum, so I'm going to spoiler it for finicky rulesiness.
It would be nice if we had clarification from the rules guys; but until we do, my reading is that sunder is restricted to actions made to attack -- such as Attack, Full Attack, Spring Attack, Vital Strike, and so on -- while disarm and trip can be used in place of any melee attack, whether part of an action or not (including attacks of opportunity).
Now, that can get confusing, because one of the attack actions is actually called Attack -- making a single attack as a standard action -- and that seems to be what Vital Strike references. Until they break out a thesaurus and clean up the wording, we're just going to have to make do with what we've got, and walk the fine line between imprecision and over-analyzing. And for me, that means distinguishing between "an" attack action, "the" attack action, and just an "attack" (no "action").