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Yes, I'm going there. This weapon is actually something I want to use as character concept and image, not knowing what I was looking for until I finally found it in Ultimate Equipment. Please keep in mind my target here is PFS. I want to be able to point to this thread if a PFS GM audits or questions or what have you. No house rules.
Jiggy posted questions about a year ago (see below) that I think went insufficiently answered. I have a few others, as well.
Tekko-kagi (iron claw)
Good classes / builds for using a tekko-kagi?
And another for good measure: Tekko-Kagi [iron claw] clarification
First off, the character concept is based off of an action figure and cartoon and comic character by Larry Hama. Second, I have all the usual questions about armor check penalty, enchantment, proficiency, yadda, yadda, yadda:
1) If I wear one, is there a proficiency issue w/out the exotic proficiency, as a buckler? Since buckles have no needed proficiently, but it is not a buckler per se, this is worth raising.
2) Given that this thing is 'like a buckler', if the weapon is masterwork, does that give a +1 to hit as well as remove any possible ACP?
3) After much use, I find that this weapon rawks. I enchant it to +5. Does the buckler aspect gain enchantment bonuses to AC?
3A) I presume the costs to enchant are all weapon-based as it is ultimately a weapon, compared to the suggestion Jiggy got (here) that masterwork and enchantment costs would be both the shield and weapon costs combined (450gp).
4) Since it can function as a buckler, can I make this a bizarre +3 defiant, deadly tekko-kagi?
4A) I presume negative to 4), but it's worth asking about a shield/weapon.
5) Looking at the item, its description, and real-world examples, this thing immediately refers my brain to brass knuckles and cestus. Normally, I would think that this weapon is wielded and thus one could not carry or wield another item with that hand as the item is not written in such a way. Yet, the buckler clause again leads me to ask an off-the-wall question: could you keep the thing in buckler mode (and accordingly lose the buckler AC benefits) and use your off-hand for Two-Weapon Fighting, using a bow, grasping a weapon with two hands, throwing shuriken, etc.?
6) Does using this as a buckler somehow invoke Two-Weapon Fighting in and of itself? i.e.: Do I take a -2 penalty (or -4 or -6) just for having it equipped, wielding it, yet as a buckler?
[Edit]: Filled in some URLs and added a 6th question.
1. Well, if you used it as a buckler only, you don't suffer nonproficiency for weapon as you aren't attacking.
2. No, it has no check penalty, it is a weapon that adds AC boost. It isn't realy a shield (I think).
Really, it should be FAQed.
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Aside from the perhaps slightly misleading three words in the title ("Ninja concept character"), I don't see how this is asking for advice. It is very clearly rules-related.
Anyway, I asked James Jacobs in his thread:
Tekko-kagi
[...descriptive fluff...]
"It can be used as an offensive weapon or defensively like a buckler..."
[...additional benefits...]
- Is it providing buckler attributes (-1 Armor check penalty, 5% Arcane spell failure, +1 AC) "like a buckler", or does it not have any ACP/ASF and just give the bonus?
- Can it be equipped in a shield slot and let another weapon be equipped in the hand, giving it a buckler-only mode?
- If so, can you re-grasp as a free action on your turn (i.e.: "my tekko-kagi is now in buckler mode and I pull out this wakizashi" then attack with it, next turn "I drop my wakizashi, the tekko-kagi is now a wielded weapon and I go to disarm")?
- If it is enchanted, does a +4 tekko-kagi give +5 to AC when used as a buckler?
- Being a hybrid weapon/shield sort of... thing, can it have shield enchantments placed on it as well as weapon enchantments (i.e.: a bizarre +3 defiant, flaming tekko-kagi)?
A tekko-kagi is a real world weapon. As such, there's probably video footage out there in a movie or something of someone using this weapon. So my first step, if I were to build a character like this, would be to seek out footage to see what fighting with that weapon LOOKS like.
From a raw rules standpoint... the fact that this weapon can be used as a weapon or a buckler means I'd go simple. At the start of any turn, you can decide whether a tekko-kagi you're using is working as a weapon or as a buckler, then treat it as such for that turn.
To answer your bullet points:
1) When serving as a buckler, it functions as a buckler and gives you the armor check penalty and spell failure and shield bonus to AC.2) It's a weapon. You carry it. There's no such thing as a "shield slot" in any case.
3) No need to "re-grasp" since it's a weapon.
4) When you enhance it, you can either do so as a weapon or a shield. You can do both. You pay for each separately, in the same way a spiked shield works.
5) Yes, but you still pay for it separately. Such a weapon would be listed in print as: +3 flaming +3 defiant tekko-kagi, I suspect... but that's kinda weird and awkward looking and as such I doubt we'd ever do something like that in print as a result.
To preserve the Wisdom of the Ancients, I'll join my questions and answers received below, as well as additional research:
1) If I wear one, is there a proficiency issue w/out the exotic proficiency, as a buckler? Since bucklers have no needed proficiently, but it is not a buckler per se, this is worth raising.
Answer: We'll assume 'no' on this, since James says that it behaves exactly as a buckler. A bucker does not require a proficiency. This will be similar to a shield bash, where shields (spiked or not) are listed as martial weapons, so if used as a weapon, it requires the proficiency, but as a shield it would require an appropriate, separate shield proficiency--though as a buckler (requiring no proficiency) it won't.
2) Is it providing buckler attributes (-1 Armor check penalty, 5% Arcane spell failure, +1 AC) "like a buckler", or does it not have any ACP/ASF and just give the bonus?
Answer: Per J J, it functions as a buckler and gives you the armor check penalty and spell failure and shield bonus to AC. It behaves exactly as a buckler. Masterwork or Mithral, therefore, would apply similarly.
3) Since the weapon is both offensive and defensive, how does the weapon work with masterwork, enchantment, etc.?
Answer: Per J J, this will behave very similarly to a spiked shield. For a spiked shield, the spike gets a masterwork/enchantment branch, and the shield gets a masterwork/enchantment branch. Thus, it could be a Masterwork Tekko-kagi (bucker) / +2 Tekko-kagi (weapon). The basis for this ruling is a Spiked Heavy Shield [Ultimate Equipment, page 38], which refers back to Armor Spikes [Ultimate Equipment, page 10]: "An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right."
Hypothesis: Also per J J, I will apply some reasonable sense here. A spiked shield is listed as seperate components, but the tekko-kagi is a weapon completely. It's not like the thing has two offensive claws and one defensive claw. As such, by reasonable reasoning, when it comes to special materials and masterwork quality, I'd say it is just the more expensive weapon, pay that cost, and then break up enchantments from there. i.e.: base cost 2gp; adamantine cost 3000 gp w/masterwork; +1 bucker cost of 1000; +2 weapon cost of 8000 = 12002 gp for a +1 (bucker)/+2 (weapon) tekko-kagi, which could in turn become a very expensive Adamantine Tekko-kagi +5 impervious (buckler) / +5 dueling (weapon) for what would appear to be 103002gp (2gp base; 3000gp material + mwk; 36000gp for +5 shield w/ +1 imperviousbonus; 50000gp for +5 weapon; 14000gp for dueling quality)
4) Does the buckler aspect gain enchantment bonuses to AC?
Anser: No, see Spiked Heavy Shield, Armor Spikes and split treatment.
5) Does the buckler aspect gain the masterwork bonuses of the weapon?
Hypothesis: Probably, because what else is there to be masterwork? 150gp for masterwork leather wrist straps?
6) Since it can function as a buckler, can I make this a bizarre +3 defiant, flaming tekko-kagi?
Answer: Not sharing the same enchantment bonus, but kind of. The shield and weapon enchantments are not shared, and need to be enchanted seperately. So it could be both a +3 defiant and a +3 flaming tekko-kagi. It could also be a +2 defiant, +4 flaming tekko-kagi. The enchantments are separate branches for the item.
7) Does using this as a buckler somehow invoke Two-Weapon Fighting in and of itself? i.e.: Do I take a -2 penalty (or -4 or -6) just for having it equipped, wielding it, yet as a buckler?
Answer: No. You can wield two weapons and choose not to invoke Two-Weapon Fighting and instead only attack with a single weapon. See the FAQ.
8) Can it be equipped in a shield slot and let another weapon be equipped in the hand, giving it a buckler-only mode? Could you keep the thing in buckler mode (and accordingly lose the buckler AC benefits) and use your off-hand for Two-Weapon Fighting, using a bow, grasping a weapon with two hands, throwing shuriken, etc.? Can you re-grasp as a free action on your turn (i.e.: "my tekko-kagi is now in buckler mode and I pull out this wakizashi" then attack with it, next turn "I drop my wakizashi, the tekko-kagi is now a wielded weapon and I go to disarm")?
Answer: J J was incorrect about the shield slot thing, per Core Rulebook, page 459 and Ultimate Equipment, page 207. So that puts that answer—as well as the original question—back into question.
Hypothesis: In view of what James has said, I look at real-world examples of the tekko-kagi. It is blades and a wrist strap and a hand strap with the blades attached to the straps on top of the hand. The hand strap is like a glove; in many ways it is less cumbersome. On top of that, this thing immediately refers my brain to brass knuckles and cestus, both of which say you can at the very least carry an item in that hand. Invoking reasonable sense, because of the abilities of the item, I would say that the item would take up both the shield slot and the hand. I would also say that it is like the cestus in that you can still use the hand.
Continuation: So, if I use it as a weapon, use it to disarm, etc., it is not a bucker and does not provide the buckler benfits. If I use it as a buckler, I cannot attack with it nor disarm with it. If I wield another weapon in that hand, it provides no benfits (neither the buckler nor the disarm, etc.), but would give the penalties (such as to cestus' precision tasks).
9) If wielded as a weapon, does it still incur Armor Check Penalties and Arcane Spell Failure chance?
Hypothesis: Since Pathfinder tends to persist penalties, I would say yes. It's probably going to interfere with somatic movements.
Conclusion
In view of what James has said, and the above, I will play this item in PFS. I'll eat the feat necessary to use it. I'll play it as a free action to switch/declare the item's purpose as buckler or weapon, which only works once per round. I'll not pay the 150 for masterwork quality for the shield aspect, but hold a surety of 150gp after I start to build this thing out.
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I'd say that the mw of the buckler aspect would be reinforcing areas that are going to be hit or providing better flexibility within the gauntlet/grip of the claws.
Of course the obvious answer for how to do this right is to have a pair of them! One's always set for defense and the other is set offense, giving you flexibility for two weapon sneak attacks while always granting some sort of shield AC.
Alternatively, you could say the weapon's modified to fit your actions by doing a Wolverine-like thing where the claws 'shink' out when used to attack but fold back when being used for defense?