Is it possible to take Eldritch Smith AND Hedge Magician traits? If so, can you stack their effects?
The latter seems to be a Magic Trait, while the former seems to be both a Magic Trait and a Race Trait.
So, is it like taking two Magic Traits (which is prohibited), or can I take them both because one is also a Race Trait?
(And therefore, is less like taking two Magic Traits, and more like taking one Magic Trait and one Race Trait).
Also, are there any methods of reducing magic item creation costs out there?
A friend of mine is making an aasimar cleric artificer (adopted by dwarves*) with craft construct. Those constructs are damned expensive, and every little bit we can save the better.
* This was part of his background well before we learned of the Eldritch Heritage trait's existence, so it isn't deliberate cheese.
EDIT: Actually, does getting the Adopted social trait MAKE this combo possible, since it let's you select a race trait, which Eldritch Smith is? That would make it a specific rule (the Adopted trait) overriding a general rule (trait restrictions). Right?
Meant to say Eldtrich Smith, not Eldritch Heritage. lol.
Even when Adopted clearly states that the character gets to choose a new race trait?
Also, they are reductions, not bonuses, much less "trait" bonuses.
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Even when Adopted clearly states that the character gets to choose a new race trait?
Also, they are reductions, not bonuses, much less "trait" bonuses.
Adopted is a Social trait that grants you a Race trait, so I'd say it's one of those "specific trumps general" things where the particular ability allows you to "break" the general rule. So if you took Hedge Magician, and then Adopted to get Eldritch Smith, I'd say you're legally acquiring both traits. Whether they work together is another subject entirely, which I'm not quite prepared to weigh in on.
Ssalarn, thank you for your input (and you too Aroach1188). If you aren't going to weigh in on the second part of the subject, then perhaps you could help my friend and I find other possible sources of reducing costs?
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Ok, I looked at the traits a little more closely and reviewed the rules on traits so here's what I think:
They are not trait "bonuses" and thus do not fall into the category of same-type bonuses not stacking. Also, since they are both tied to two different sets of circumstances, I cannot find any reason they would not both apply when those circumstances happen to overlap.
The only thing I would say, is that since they both are working simultaneously, be sure to take the 5% off the base price twice, not 5%, and then 5% off the reduced price. Which is actually more beneficial for you, so probably not a mistake you're likely to bump into unless you're bad at math :)
Sorry I can't suggest any other ways to reduce crafting price RD, my buddy is generally the crafter in our group if anyone's going to do it, so I haven't delved too deeply into the various tricks involved with it. I personally don't usually spend more than a feat or two out of my resources on crafting.
FYI, I'm TERRIBLE at math.
I figured you would be paying 30% of the market price with both traits in most cases.
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How do you come up with 30%? Doesn't crafting normally reduce the cost of the item by 1/2?
So if the item is normally 10,000 gp, we craft it for 5,000, right?
So we take 5% off of 5,000 since both traits reduce the price to craft the item, which gives us 250 gp, which we'll subtract from 5000 twice giving us 4,500 gp as our crafting price, for a total cost of 45% of the price to purchase.
The trick here is that 5% of the crafting price is equal to 2.5% of the purchase price.
Taking 5% away from the COST to make an item, generally means you are removing 10% away from the PRICE of an item (since the market price is usually twice that of the crafting cost).
Therefore, the two traits take away 10% from the creation cost, which equates to 20% away form the market price. The other 50% is the standard reduction for crafting.
Therefore, when crafting with both these traits, you are looking at a 70% reduction in GP expenditure when compared to just buying it.
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Taking 5% away from the COST to make an item, generally means you are removing 10% away from the PRICE of an item (since the market price is usually twice that of the crafting cost).
Therefore, the two traits take away 10% from the creation cost, which equates to 20% away form the market price. The other 50% is the standard reduction for crafting.
Therefore, when crafting with both these traits, you are looking at a 70% reduction in GP expenditure when compared to just buying it.
The traits actually say " you reduce the cost of making the item by 5%" and "you reduce the cost of gp required to make the item by 5%".
What you're lowering here is the cost of creation, not the price of the item. I think the wording here is pretty clear about which price you're reducing, and that's the creation cost of the item, not the total purchase price.When you look at the Magic Items section in the PRD you'll find this entry down towards the bottom:
"Cost: This is the cost in gold pieces to create the item. Generally this cost is equal to half the price of an item, but additional material components might increase this number. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components."
So if we look at the following item:
Well of Many Worlds
Aura strong conjuration; CL 17th
Slot none; Price 82,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This strange, interdimensional device looks just like a portable hole. Anything placed within it is immediately cast to another world—a parallel world, another planet, or a different plane (chosen randomly). If the well is moved, it opens to a new plane (also randomly determined). It can be picked up, folded, or rolled, just as a portable hole can be. Objects from the world the well touches can come through the opening just as easily—it is a two-way portal.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, gate; Cost 41,000 gp
You'll notice that we have a Price entry, and a Cost entry. The Cost entry is the number which is being reduced by 5% by the two traits in question, which equates to a 2.5% decrease in the total Price of the item.
lol. I'm well aware that it doesn't effect the actual price of the item.
You must have misunderstood me. I'm talking about potential savings.
I can buy the item @ 100% price. Or I could make it myself @ 50% of the price (100% of the cost). Or I could make it with these two talents @ 30% of the price (90% of the cost).
Never mind. I'm a mathematical idiot.
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lol. I'm well aware that it doesn't effect the actual price of the item.
You must have misunderstood me. I'm talking about potential savings.
I can buy the item @ 100% price. Or I could make it myself @ 50% of the price (100% of the cost). Or I could make it with these two talents @ 30% of the price (90% of the cost).
90% of the Cost is 45% of the price..... I think you might be bad at math RD :P
No offense :)
Would you be so kind as to help me out then?
WORD PROBLEM:
If the MARKET PRICE of SEVERAL items sums to 17,680gp, what is my final COST of said items if they all qualify for ONE of the above traits?
Please show your work. Pretty please. I need a model to work off of. My excel sheet is all topsy turvy.
Which would be the same as (17,680 * .475), right?
Geez. Where did I go wrong?
One thing for those looking at this for normal magic items, Eldritch Smith doesn't seem to work with the normal Spellcraft roll for most magic items. (Though a Master Craftsman gets around that.)
If you multiply everything together, then it doesn't matter what order you apply things or how many things you apply them to (but you will need a calculator).
So, since the traits say take 5% off the cost (which is half the price, in most cases), one trait would give you:
- 17680 * 0.5 * 0.95 = 8398
With both traits:
- 17680 * 0.5 * 0.95 * 0.95 = 7978.1
That's cost, so that's what the creator would pay to make it. Price doesn't change.
Note: 0.95 * 0.95 = 0.9025, which means this is (very slightly) more expensive than adding the reductions together, which would be 0.9.
Edit: Premultiplying these modifiers together, and applying them directly to the price, one trait would give you price * 0.475 and two would give price * 0.45125.
Geez. Where did I go wrong?
Right here:
Taking 5% away from the COST to make an item, generally means you are removing 10% away from the PRICE of an item (since the market price is usually twice that of the crafting cost).
Actually, taking 5% away from the COST to make an item means you're removing 2.5% from the PRICE of the item. You doubled when you should have halved.
For example, consider making a minor wondrous that costs 1,000gp (cloak of protection +1, say).
Normal crafting cost: 500gp (50%)
5% reduction from the trait saves you 25gp (5% of 500gp).
Your crafting cost: 475gp (47.5%)
If you can stack the traits, repeat the math - and you end up paying 45% of retail to make an item.
I'd say they do stack because they modify different things. Eldrich smith reduces the cost you pay to create the item. Hedge Magician reduce the GP value of the item which is slightly different.
So take the +1 sword for 2000 GP. Hedge Magician makes it 1900 GP which means it's less than 2000 gp and therefore is a 1 full days work instead of 2. The cost you pay is based on the GP value so you pay 1/2 that which is 950 GP. Then Eldrich smith reduce that cost by 5%. So you create the Sword for 855 gp.
That's how I read it.
I'd say they do stack because they modify different things. Eldrich smith reduces the cost you pay to create the item. Hedge Magician reduce the GP value of the item which is slightly different.
So take the +1 sword for 2000 GP. Hedge Magician makes it 1900 GP which means it's less than 2000 gp and therefore is a 1 full days work instead of 2. The cost you pay is based on the GP value so you pay 1/2 that which is 950 GP. Then Eldrich smith reduce that cost by 5%. So you create the Sword for 855 gp.
That's how I read it.
I'm assuming it operates off of the base. In short, having both traits would take away 10%.
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I'm assuming it operates off of the base. In short, having both traits would take away 10%.I'd say they do stack because they modify different things. Eldrich smith reduces the cost you pay to create the item. Hedge Magician reduce the GP value of the item which is slightly different.
So take the +1 sword for 2000 GP. Hedge Magician makes it 1900 GP which means it's less than 2000 gp and therefore is a 1 full days work instead of 2. The cost you pay is based on the GP value so you pay 1/2 that which is 950 GP. Then Eldrich smith reduce that cost by 5%. So you create the Sword for 855 gp.
That's how I read it.
That's my assumption as well, since both feats effectively take effect simultaneously.
Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that while you can apply the .475 multiplier directly to the price most of the time, it's much better to avoid doing that since the cost isn't always half the price. (Items with spells that require expensive components don't halve the price of the components.)