Ok so as someone who generally feels that they have a grasp for the rules I occasionally get suckered in by my own logic, and a possibility that I had long ago misjudged as impossible gets shoved in my face and I have to do a double take.
The culprit: Archtypes, specifically the combining of Archtypes.
When I originally started reading the rules about the Archtypes in the APG, I literally assumed that if you took one, then you *only* got to take one. I guess my brain was going back to the Class Kits from 2nd ed DnD.
Well after taking a overly long vacaction from the boards here, I have returned and began reading all about how different builds that people have implemented combined archtypes (ex. the Vivesectionist/Chirurgeon Alchemist).
Well assuming (see, there I go again) this tactic is legal in standard play (and I can see no reason why it wouldn't be) then from what I understand you can combine any collection of Archtypes as long as the abilities that the Archtypes are replacing do not overlap. Is this correct? Also are there any other rules that would effect the combining of Archtypes or that would prevent certain Archtypes from being combined?
Also is there a specific book or FAQ that talks about combining Archtypes? Thanks for your help in advance. I'm still in a little bit of shock that I didn't know about this sooner.
Most of the options presented on the following pages include a host of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
There's similar text under Spellcasting Class Options in Ultimate Magic, and Class Archetypes in Ultimate Combat.
from what I understand you can combine any collection of Archtypes as long as the abilities that the Archtypes are replacing do not overlap. Is this correct?
That is correct.
Also is there a specific book or FAQ that talks about combining Archtypes? Thanks for your help in advance. I'm still in a little bit of shock that I didn't know about this sooner.
Yes, the Advanced Player's Guide specifies this in the opening section for archetypes. I think the other large books featuring archetypes also do this.
You are correct, so long as the archetypes do no change, modify, add, or in any way alter the same parts of the class they would both be viable. This rule was covered in the beginning of the chapter when they first showed up in the APG.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
Well assuming (see, there I go again) this tactic is legal in standard play (and I can see no reason why it wouldn't be) then from what I understand you can combine any collection of Archtypes as long as the abilities that the Archtypes are replacing do not overlap. Is this correct? Also are there any other rules that would effect the combining of Archtypes or that would prevent certain Archtypes from being combined?
You are correct. As long as the archetypes don't replace the same abilities, it is a perfectly legal combination. Although the combination may be notably different from the regular class (My Skulking Slayer/Scout lost Trapfinding, Disable Device as a class skill, and has 2 less skill ranks than a regular rogue. I had to take a trait to get it back as a class skill.)
Also, the archetype info can be found here, but I'd expect it to also be in the Advance Player's Guide, where it was introduced.
Edit: Ninja'd thrice. I'm bad at this :\
Thanks one and all! I really appreciate the info and for pointing out where this was in the APG (unfortunately I don't own UC or UM yet). I feel bad that the answer was staring me in the face all this time if I had just read the intro into Archtypes more completely. Oh well, we live and we learn.
Thanks again!
And nobody stacks archetypes like a magus. I had a blackblade/hexcrafter/spelldancer magus in my last game. It gets crazy.
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Also bear in mind that ALTERNATE CLASSES are technically archetypes as well (per Jason Bulmahn). This doesn't really mean much, but it means your alternate classes can also take the archetypes that the class they're based off of can take, as long as the abilities replaced are shared by both classes. This translates to the following archetypes becoming available to these alternate classes (using just RPG series books only, and not including Advanced Race Guide...as I haven't finished looking through my copy >.>):
Antipaladin (paladin): Knight of the Sepulcher (UC) (although this archetype is called out as ONLY selectable by antipaladins)
Ninja (rogue): Burglar (APG), Scout (APG)
Samurai (cavalier): None
EDIT: So as far as Ninja are concerned, burglar makes a terrible choice for an archetype, as not having trapfinding really knocks the wind out of the usefulness of that archetype. Scout, on the other hand, wouldn't be a bad idea.
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And nobody stacks archetypes like a magus. I had a blackblade/hexcrafter/spelldancer magus in my last game. It gets crazy.
Tell it to the Qinggong Drunken Master of the Sacred Mountain of the Four Winds. :D
Just to chime in real quick, your stacked archetypes can't replace or alter the same ability. So if you have a cleric archetype that limits you to one domain, and an archetype that says you have to take a specific domain, they won't stack since they both alter the domain class feature.
Oh wow. That's something that I'm sure a few people miss. So if I wanted to take two Archtypes, and one said that I have to use the Nature Domain as a cleric, and another says that I only get one domain instead of two, since both Archtypes are changing the way that the Domain class ability works then I could not take both Archtypes based off of that statement. Interesting.
I was also wondering about how this whole combining thing works with the Totem Barbarian. As far as I can see from the description, the Archtype doesn't really change any of your class abilities. Unless you state that only Totem Archtype Barbarians can take advantage of the Totem Rage Powers. I'm not sure if that's the case or not, however, if it is the case then would that mean that you couldn't take any other Archtypes that alter a Rage Power (assuming of course that there is an Archtype that does this)?
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Just to chime in real quick, your stacked archetypes can't replace or alter the same ability. So if you have a cleric archetype that limits you to one domain, and an archetype that says you have to take a specific domain, they won't stack since they both alter the domain class feature.Oh wow. That's something that I'm sure a few people miss. So if I wanted to take two Archtypes, and one said that I have to use the Nature Domain as a cleric, and another says that I only get one domain instead of two, since both Archtypes are changing the way that the Domain class ability works then I could not take both Archtypes based off of that statement. Interesting.
I was also wondering about how this whole combining thing works with the Totem Barbarian. As far as I can see from the description, the Archtype doesn't really change any of your class abilities. Unless you state that only Totem Archtype Barbarians can take advantage of the Totem Rage Powers. I'm not sure if that's the case or not, however, if it is the case then would that mean that you couldn't take any other Archtypes that alter a Rage Power (assuming of course that there is an Archtype that does this)?
Yeah, Totem Warrior seems to be a really strange archetype in that it doesn't actually seem to grant or replace any abilities. I suspect that there was supposed to be a specific benefit to this archetype that disappeared in editing somewhere. There's nothing in the books that prevents any barbarian from taking any given string of totem powers though, so I generally pretend that Totem Warrior doesn't really exist, since it doesn't, really.
Your first statement about the interactions between an archetype that requires you to choose the Nature domain and another archetype that limits you to one is exactly right, though. Since they both alter the domain feature, they won't work together.There's also a little question about whether the Qinggong monk stacks with other archetypes, since it gives you the option to replace certain class features. I'm of the opinion that being able to replace a class feature with a ki power of your choice is in itself an alteration of the feature, but others disagree and I don't think there's been an offical FAQ or Eratta on the subject.
And nobody stacks archetypes like a magus. I had a blackblade/hexcrafter/spelldancer magus in my last game. It gets crazy.You give up quite a bit for that though in the magic and armor department.
WItn a DM caveat that allows the "blackblade" to be a staff you can have a Blackblade/Hexcrafter/staff magus.
Technically you could even without the Dm caveat, but you'd have a blackblade and a staff.