For a spell that has it's duration as (concentration + x per Caster level), Is it required to spend your next standard action to maintain the spell in order to get the (x per CL) portion of it?
Or more to the point, does the act of casting a spell include it's initial maintenance concentration? And does the spell "linger" if not maintained the following round.
(ignore spells with a duration of just concentration, as I know they do not linger, It's the extra time based on CL that is the issue.)
The Backstory:
Our group is currently running the kingmaker campaign. In witch every player gets to DM a book out of the 6 books that make up that campaign. Every PC in the game can cast spells, so this effects all of us as players and DMs. The group is split down the center about the interpretation of the rules regarding concentration and maintaining of spells. Since we are all DMs of the game and no side has a majority, there is no way to "break the tie" so to speak.
We are now seeking an external opinion since 1/2 of our nights gaming are spent trying to convince the other side that our interpretation is correct. And the thing at stake is a whole standard action (in the following round) that might be spent casting another spell or attacking.
Side 1: interprates the rules as: concentrating while casting and maintaining are different things, and that if you do not maintain the spell even once, you do not get the CL based extra time and the spell will "fizzle" similar to if you had failed a concentration check while casting it since you were never actually maintaining the spell.
Side 2: Interprates the duration as a mathematical equation where duration= (con. + x per CL) so that if con = 0 (IE: never maintained) than it's duration is (0 + x per CL) or just (x per. CL). what this says is that these spells CAN be "fire and forget" in a way but only last as long as the CL based bonus time.
Any reference to specific rules, erratas, or definitions would go a long way toward resolving this issue. Both sides have read all material regarding duration and concentration, but we reach differing conclusions from the same words.
Kinda to clarify what Rizzonia is getting at....
The question comes with the whole art of Concentration. Mainly the spell in question is Wall of Fire.
Now we all know concentration is a requirement with any spell, mainly in casting the spell. A spell like Wall of Fire also requires concentration for the duration of the spell. Now are those two bits of concentration done while casting the spell? Since he used concentration to cast the spell, this counts as the requirement for the Duration and the Wall stays up for + caster lvls.
Example :
Round one: Player casts Wall of Fire as a caster lvl 8, picks the location of the wall, and finishes his/her turn.
Round two: Player can do anything he/she wants and the Wall of Fire will last an additional 7 rounds.
The way I understand it is that you are REQUIRED to spend a standard action to maintain the spell after casting. So the real way the spell is suppose to act is :
Round one: Player casts Wall of Fire as a caster lvl 8, picks the location of the Wall and finishes his turn.
Round two: Player maintains the Wall with a standard action, utilizes his/her move action and slight action if necessary and finishes their turn.
Round three: Player can do anything he/she wants and the Wall of Fire stays up for an additional 8 rounds.
So which way is right? Or is neither one right and we're just doing it wrong?
I think the key lies in the Duration within the spell's description.
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
This is a mathematical formula. If concentration is C, then:
Duration = C +lvl
If Wall of Fire is meant only to last for those extra rounds after at least one round of concentration, they shouldn't have used a "+". The phrases "concentration, then 1 round/level" or even "concentration plus 1 round/level" would make this line blurrier, but as it stands, it seems like you gotta abide by the laws of math. (C) can be anything, even 0.
Finally, let's talk about in-game balance:
Compare Wall of Fire to other 4th level spells. Or Minor Image to other 2nd level spells. Etc. Are these spells so significantly better than others of their level that they should require a two-turn minimum to cast? I do not think so.
Hope that helps.
I'd go with side 2 interretation as I see no reason why spending 0 rounds concentrating upon maintaining spell would prevent the non-concentration duration part from kicking in.
The level-based part is the spell's minimum duration. You can make the spell last longer by concentrating on it, but it will always last at least that long.
But here lies the problem.
First, how long is 0 rounds? 0 is not a number since you can have 0 of nothing and 0 of anything. So where is 0 rounds?
Second, on page 213 under Casting Time the last paragraph quotes "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." Wouldn't Duration also be a pertinent decision?
Third, on page 216 under Duration/Concentration: "The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206. You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating on it."
Fourth, on page 186 under Concentrating to Maintain a Spell: "Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends."
Damage for Wall of Fire is dependent on caster lvl, but if you think about it, an 8th lvl caster would be a 8-32 dmg if they stood 20ft, 16-64 dmg if they stood the 10 ft away, and any additional dmg from passing through it. But that's damage over time, so you can do other things while that is happening.
While Ice Storm, which is same lvl, does 3d6 or 3-18 points of bludgeoning dmg and 2d6 or 2-12 cold dmg equaling up to 5-30 points of dmg. So yes, Wall of Fire does more dmg then any other lvl 4 spell. Just because it does it in small increments, doesn't mean it adds up. After all, any MMORPG player can tell you that DoTs are awesome.
Quixote wrote: I think the key lies in the Duration within the spell's description.
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
This is a mathematical formula. If concentration is C, then:
Duration = C +lvl
If Wall of Fire is meant only to last for those extra rounds after at least one round of concentration, they shouldn't have used a "+". The phrases "concentration, then 1 round/level" or even "concentration plus 1 round/level" would make this line blurrier, but as it stands, it seems like you gotta abide by the laws of math. (C) can be anything, even 0.
Finally, let's talk about in-game balance:
Compare Wall of Fire to other 4th level spells. Or Minor Image to other 2nd level spells. Etc. Are these spells so significantly better than others of their level that they should require a two-turn minimum to cast? I do not think so.
Hope that helps.
Also, concentration + 1 round/level would be an inappropriate mathematical formula since C is an action thus being a constant of 1 round and not a variable component. You have to spend a standard action for concentration to continue the duration. The + 1 round/level is an effect that happens after concentration.
Dops? I say we give this until tuesday. Than let everyone in the party read it, and decide on an outcome BEFORE we start to game. Whatever outcome it is, I will go with, as will the rest of the party.
If anybody else has anything to add or present, please do so by Tuesday night.
(This comment is mainly to bump this issue back to the top.)
Rizzonia wrote: (This comment is mainly to bump this issue back to the top.) You might want to check out the responses to the other thread you made on the same subject, as well: Link
BeyondDops wrote:
First, how long is 0 rounds? 0 is not a number since you can have 0 of nothing and 0 of anything. So where is 0 rounds?
I hear the soul of generations of mathematicians howling in anguish.
Are, Thanks for the link. I had a loading error when trying to post. Didn't think it got posted. Sorry for the dup.
duration of concentration is not something decided upon at the cast of a spell... it is a decision made round to round.
It does not require concentration... if, however, you choose not to maintain concentration beginning on the round immediately after casting you may not extend the spell later.
If it was written as such: 1 rnd/lvl + concentration
I would interpret it to mean the spell goes off, and lasts for x rounds... once x is finished, you may concentrate to continue the spell.
But it is not... choose to concentrate, if not, the 2nd part of the duration begins (1 rnd/lvl)
BeyondDops wrote: First, how long is 0 rounds? 0 is not a number since you can have 0 of nothing and 0 of anything. So where is 0 rounds? wat -_-
BeyondDops wrote: Quixote wrote: I think the key lies in the Duration within the spell's description.
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
This is a mathematical formula. If concentration is C, then:
Duration = C +lvl
If Wall of Fire is meant only to last for those extra rounds after at least one round of concentration, they shouldn't have used a "+". The phrases "concentration, then 1 round/level" or even "concentration plus 1 round/level" would make this line blurrier, but as it stands, it seems like you gotta abide by the laws of math. (C) can be anything, even 0.
Finally, let's talk about in-game balance:
Compare Wall of Fire to other 4th level spells. Or Minor Image to other 2nd level spells. Etc. Are these spells so significantly better than others of their level that they should require a two-turn minimum to cast? I do not think so.
Hope that helps.
Also, concentration + 1 round/level would be an inappropriate mathematical formula since C is an action thus being a constant of 1 round and not a variable component. You have to spend a standard action for concentration to continue the duration. The + 1 round/level is an effect that happens after concentration. C is a valid variable. It would be the number of rounds spent concentrating, not the length on one concentration action.
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