BeyondDops's page

The enemies can usually just step out of a wall of fire, so it will rarely do the maximum possible damage. (There are ways of getting more out of it, but it's still tough to get full damage every round.)

Now, mathematical issue, 0 is in fact a number. It's what you get when your debt and your paycheck are the same, for example. In fact it's one of the only numbers you can count on (the other being one). So zero rounds makes as much sense as any other number of rounds.

No, you just said it yourself. Zero is a number representing absence of something. Income - Debt = Profit, 0 profit means an absence of profit so there is nothing to measure, and you pissed off a Ferengi. 0 rounds would translate to no rounds which has no time measurement, would that make it a free action?

If you want to go mathematical about this then it would look like this.

Concentration = 1 Standard action as stated on page 216. That would make it a constant. Remember Constants form math class? It means IT DOESN'T CHANGE. The way you guys are viewing it is like a variable. So I'm keeping the spell for 200 rounds so I need to concentrate for 192 rounds cause its + 8 cause my caster level. Well how long have you been concentrating? 192 rounds or 1? If C is a variable, then you would treat it from 1-192. But C is a standard action which means you have to do something that lasts longer then nothing. It doesn't matter what number you are on, you will always be on 1 round.

Also if 1 round is equivalent to 6 seconds, how long would 0 rounds be? 1 seconds, 2 seconds? No, 0 seconds flat. It does not happen.

Page 216 :Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating on it. Awesome, that means in C + 1/rnd castlvl, C must happen first.

Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Wait a second....

Page 186 states : Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going.

So what the book states is that you need to continue concentration to maintain them. That requires a standard action. After you stop concentrating, then you have bonus rounds.

Wall of fire takes a Standard action to cast. It requires concentration to continue, which is a standard action...

But here lies the problem.

First, how long is 0 rounds? 0 is not a number since you can have 0 of nothing and 0 of anything. So where is 0 rounds?

Second, on page 213 under Casting Time the last paragraph quotes "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." Wouldn't Duration also be a pertinent decision?

Third, on page 216 under Duration/Concentration: "The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206. You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating on it."

Fourth, on page 186 under Concentrating to Maintain a Spell: "Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends."

Damage for Wall of Fire is dependent on caster lvl, but if you think about it, an 8th lvl caster would be a 8-32 dmg if they stood 20ft, 16-64 dmg if they stood the 10 ft away, and any additional dmg from passing through it. But that's damage over time, so you can do other things while that is happening.

While Ice Storm, which is same lvl, does 3d6 or 3-18 points of bludgeoning dmg and 2d6 or 2-12 cold dmg equaling up to 5-30 points of dmg. So yes, Wall of Fire does more dmg then any other lvl 4 spell. Just because it does it in small increments, doesn't mean it adds up. After all, any MMORPG player can tell you that DoTs are awesome.

Concentration is not a variable, it is a constant of one round as defined above. So if C = 1 standard action, then C + 1 round/lvl would be 1 + 1 round/lvl not 0.

I think its the fact that bards can take a 10 or 20 in any situation while everyone else has to be in a position without immediate danger or distracted.

So a bard can take a 10 in combat while everyone else can't. Bards are combat thinkers.

I think the key lies in the Duration within the spell's description.

Duration concentration + 1 round/level

This is a mathematical formula. If concentration is C, then:

Duration = C +lvl

If Wall of Fire is meant only to last for those extra rounds after at least one round of concentration, they shouldn't have used a "+". The phrases "concentration, then 1 round/level" or even "concentration plus 1 round/level" would make this line blurrier, but as it stands, it seems like you gotta abide by the laws of math. (C) can be anything, even 0.

Finally, let's talk about in-game balance:

Compare Wall of Fire to other 4th level spells. Or Minor Image to other 2nd level spells. Etc. Are these spells so significantly better than others of their level that they should require a two-turn minimum to cast? I do not think so.

Hope that helps.

Also, concentration + 1 round/level would be an inappropriate mathematical formula since C is an action thus being a constant of 1 round and not a variable component. You have to spend a standard action for concentration to continue the duration. The + 1 round/level is an effect that happens after concentration.

But here lies the problem.

First, how long is 0 rounds? 0 is not a number since you can have 0 of nothing and 0 of anything. So where is 0 rounds?

Second, on page 213 under Casting Time the last paragraph quotes "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." Wouldn't Duration also be a pertinent decision?

Third, on page 216 under Duration/Concentration: "The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206. You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating on it."

Fourth, on page 186 under Concentrating to Maintain a Spell: "Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends."

Damage for Wall of Fire is dependent on caster lvl, but if you think about it, an 8th lvl caster would be a 8-32 dmg if they stood 20ft, 16-64 dmg if they stood the 10 ft away, and any additional dmg from passing through it. But that's damage over time, so you can do other things while that is happening.

While Ice Storm, which is same lvl, does 3d6 or 3-18 points of bludgeoning dmg and 2d6 or 2-12 cold dmg equaling up to 5-30 points of dmg. So yes, Wall of Fire does more dmg then any other lvl 4 spell. Just because it does it in small increments, doesn't mean it adds up. After all, any MMORPG player can tell you that DoTs are awesome.

Kinda to clarify what Rizzonia is getting at....

The question comes with the whole art of Concentration. Mainly the spell in question is Wall of Fire.

Now we all know concentration is a requirement with any spell, mainly in casting the spell. A spell like Wall of Fire also requires concentration for the duration of the spell. Now are those two bits of concentration done while casting the spell? Since he used concentration to cast the spell, this counts as the requirement for the Duration and the Wall stays up for + caster lvls.

Example :

Round one: Player casts Wall of Fire as a caster lvl 8, picks the location of the wall, and finishes his/her turn.

Round two: Player can do anything he/she wants and the Wall of Fire will last an additional 7 rounds.

The way I understand it is that you are REQUIRED to spend a standard action to maintain the spell after casting. So the real way the spell is suppose to act is :

Round one: Player casts Wall of Fire as a caster lvl 8, picks the location of the Wall and finishes his turn.

Round two: Player maintains the Wall with a standard action, utilizes his/her move action and slight action if necessary and finishes their turn.

Round three: Player can do anything he/she wants and the Wall of Fire stays up for an additional 8 rounds.

So which way is right? Or is neither one right and we're just doing it wrong?