Yes, you still get the extra rounds. Since you did not concentrate the placeholder is 0 so you only get X. Nowhere in the rules does it say you must concentrate to get the remainder. Concentrating is an option not a requirement. Just remember that you can't decide to concentrate later to regain use of the spell.
I agree with the folks above, but for the sake of argument, I have to say we haven't proven all that much.
In Hjolmaer's post, the final line could be read as:
Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating
You cannot cease to do something before you begin it, therefore, these spells do not last "a short time" until you've concentrated on them for some amount of time.
To counter this, I'd like to look at this:
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
This is a mathematical formula, like wraithstrike said. If the spells were meant to last for those extra rounds after at least one round of concentration, they shouldn't have used a "+". The phrases "concentration, then 1 round/level" or even "concentration plus 1 round/level" would make this line blurrier, but as it stands, it seems like you gotta abide by the laws of math.
Finally, though, I think we should talk about in-game balance, since none of your group seems bent on going by the RAW, the consequences be damned.
Compare Wall of Fire to other 4th level spells. Or Minor Image to other 2nd level spells. Etc. Are these spells so significantly better than others of their level that they should require a two-turn minimum to cast? I do not think so.
Hope that helps.
The enemies can usually just step out of a wall of fire, so it will rarely do the maximum possible damage. (There are ways of getting more out of it, but it's still tough to get full damage every round.)
Now, mathematical issue, 0 is in fact a number. It's what you get when your debt and your paycheck are the same, for example. In fact it's one of the only numbers you can count on (the other being one). So zero rounds makes as much sense as any other number of rounds.
It requires concentration if you wish to keep it going. If your next turn comes up, and you don't want to concentrate the spell drops with most spells that use concentration.
If a spell has concentration + X, then you still get X. The is in addition to the concentration which is 0.
Also in PF and in real life an ability score of 0(which actually is a number and therefore has value) is not the same as nothing in the sense you described it upthread. That would be "-" which is used for monsters that lack an ability score such constitution for undead or a caster that does not have access to a certain level of spells. A caster that might have access to a certain level of spells will have a 0 to indicate that the option is there.
The number of rounds being concentrated on is 0 and as a mathmatical formula the rest of the equation is still in play so not matter if you look at from a mathmatical standpoint or a PF standpoint there is no requirement to concentrate for one round in order to get the rest of the duration of the spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Zero does not mean an absence of something. Zero is concrete value just like 1 or -1. MagiMaster has a degree in math or something if I remember correctly so he would be the best one to ask about that.
It is very simple:
Round 1) Cast the spell: Standard action (assuming it is a standard action spell).
Round 2) Maintain the spell: Standard action. Failure to maintain starts the clock running.
- Gauss
To the matter of 0 being no number: 0 is indeed a number. It just is no "natural" number. There's a huge difference between "there are no sheeps on the meadow" and "you can't count the sheeps, because the meadow doesn't exist alltogether" (first would be associated with 0, second with an empty set, I think. Not completely sure with the second example...).
About whether or not concentration is required to get the extra-rounds, I'd just look at spells without extra duration after concentration. What would happen, if you didn't concentrate in the round after casting? The spell would be active for the time between casting and your next turn. So effectively he had a duration of 1 round. Since the duration-entry in his description stated "concentration", and the spell did last at least some time, there has to have happened some sort of concentration. So the spell would qualify for the extra-rounds after concentration.
Long story short: I'd say the initial round of casting the spell qualifies as concentrating on the spell for that round, thus granting the extra rounds.
I remember being told the difference between 0 and nothing in physics class a while back. IIRC it involves set theory*, but I don't want to derail the thread so I will led one of these more edumacated peoples explain it.
*Don't quote me on that. I do know they are not the same, but I can't recall the exact explanation.
edit:snejj's post backs up my "set" quote.
For those who think one must spend another round concentrating to keep the wall of fire up the extra rounds, how would you word it if you didn't have to concentrate for a round?
If the duration of the spell is meant to be the round i cast it, and CL rounds after that, what should the text say? How should the rule be written, if not the way it is written now?
Round 1) Cast standard action Wall of Fire (CL5)
Round 2) do something else and not concentrate.
You think that as written the spell fizzles in round 2? Then how do you write it so that the spell continues to round 6?
R2 = 1 round
R3 = 2 round
R4 = 3 round
R5 = 4 round
R6 = 5 round
|
I remember being told the difference between 0 and nothing in physics class a while back. IIRC it involves set theory*, but I don't want to derail the thread so I will led one of these more edumacated peoples explain it.
*Don't quote me on that. I do know they are not the same, but I can't recall the exact explanation.
But this is not much different outside of the world of mathematics. If I asked you what you drank tonight, it sounds weird if you respond "zero" and sounds fine if you respond "nothing." Conversely, if I ask how many different beverages you drank tonight, the proper response is "zero" instead of "nothing." Zero is a quantity and Nothing is a property.
To set theorists, zero is very much a natural number.
As an addendum, it is generally a poor idea to ask a physicist to explain a mathematical concept and an even worse idea to ask a mathematician to explain a physical concept.
The Fox:
Bravo! My skills are more of the technicican nature. I know some set theory but I try to forget it. :)
- Gauss
|
|
What would happen, if you didn't concentrate in the round after casting? The spell would be active for the time between casting and your next turn. So effectively he had a duration of 1 round. Since the duration-entry in his description stated "concentration", and the spell did last at least some time, there has to have happened some sort of concentration. So the spell would qualify for the extra-rounds after concentration.
Long story short: I'd say the initial round of casting the spell qualifies as concentrating on the spell for that round, thus granting the extra rounds.
That is exactly how I would see it also. It may be only an infinitesimal amount of time concentrating, but that suffices.
As an addendum, it is generally a poor idea to ask a physicist to explain a mathematical concept and an even worse idea to ask a mathematician to explain a physical concept.
Yep, and since I'm a phisicist...(still studying)
Thanks for the explanation! Now I finally really understand that issue.
I was going to chime in with a bit of information on the set theoretic model of the Peano axioms, which begins with defining zero as the empty set, but that'd probably just confuse the issue. Outside that model The Fox's explanation is probably more useful. (BTW, the Peano axioms themselves begin with "0 is a natural number.")
I will say that 0 and 1 are the only two numbers that always appear in any reasonable number system (the simplest of which consists of just 0 and 1).
More on topic, yes a 0 round action would essentially be a free action as it takes up no time and no attention (if you consider it any kind of action at all anyway). And 0 profit is still better than a negative profit (profit, being a real number, can easily be positive, negative or zero).
The enemies can usually just step out of a wall of fire, so it will rarely do the maximum possible damage. (There are ways of getting more out of it, but it's still tough to get full damage every round.)
Now, mathematical issue, 0 is in fact a number. It's what you get when your debt and your paycheck are the same, for example. In fact it's one of the only numbers you can count on (the other being one). So zero rounds makes as much sense as any other number of rounds.
No, you just said it yourself. Zero is a number representing absence of something. Income - Debt = Profit, 0 profit means an absence of profit so there is nothing to measure, and you pissed off a Ferengi. 0 rounds would translate to no rounds which has no time measurement, would that make it a free action?
If you want to go mathematical about this then it would look like this.
Concentration = 1 Standard action as stated on page 216. That would make it a constant. Remember Constants form math class? It means IT DOESN'T CHANGE. The way you guys are viewing it is like a variable. So I'm keeping the spell for 200 rounds so I need to concentrate for 192 rounds cause its + 8 cause my caster level. Well how long have you been concentrating? 192 rounds or 1? If C is a variable, then you would treat it from 1-192. But C is a standard action which means you have to do something that lasts longer then nothing. It doesn't matter what number you are on, you will always be on 1 round.
Also if 1 round is equivalent to 6 seconds, how long would 0 rounds be? 1 seconds, 2 seconds? No, 0 seconds flat. It does not happen.
Page 216 :Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating on it. Awesome, that means in C + 1/rnd castlvl, C must happen first.
Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Wait a second....
Page 186 states : Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going.
So what the...
This makes no sense. You're saying it's a Standard Action to cast a spell. Now you're saying in order to get the extended duration you must also concentrate on the spell, also requiring a standard action. Unless you expend your move action before casting the spell, you waste spell points because you do not consecutively concentrate on channeling the spell.
On top of this, saying a character has to concentrate at least once (which must be in the same round) is physically impossible for any PC to do outside of a Wish-like spell or ability, according to Mechanics + RAW, because the wording, which you stretch to unbelievable and inconsistent lengths, is done poorly. If I must concentrate the spell in order to maintain it (or even get the deteriorating effects), I must do it within the round of casting, otherwise I am considered not concentrating for that round in which the spell is created, and thusly the spell instantly vaporizes; that is, according to your logic and your literal usage of the wording.
There is a time where RAI supercedes the RAW, and this can be done through the creators making official statements/changes to execute their intent, or via the GM to keep things simple and/or balanced for their group/session. This is one of those times. Saying a caster must concentrate within the same round (or it instantly deteriorates the next round) for the spell to continue on its own for a small duration is majorly imbalanced and defeats the entire purpose of concentration as a rule and a concept.
I dare you to take your "logic" to any PFS GM and/or Developer of PF, and they will go "WTF?" at your proposal and interpretation for their rules.
I'm new to the forums, just to make sure we are on the same page:
RAW= rules as written?
RAI= rules as interpreted?
correct?
Yes.
RAI is rules as intended. It's meant to represent the developer's opinions on how things were meant to be. (See the difference between the FAQs and the Errata.)
Since you have to concentrate to cast the spell this establishes the start of the period of concentration.
The rules do not explicitly state that sustaining the duration does not require a standard action in the same round as the spell it cast but that interpretation, as pointed about above, is simply ludicrous.
The only sensible interpretation is that a standard action is required on each subsequent round.
Hence if your concentration is broken when you fail a concentration check, choose not to concentrate, cast another spell or use your standard action in any subsequent round for anything else.
Thus your +X rounds can start in the same round you cast the spell when you choose to cease concentrating on it. 'Ceasing to concentrate' is defined as a free action.