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So there doesn't seem to be a clear rule on this except if you have
the Unseat feat..
You are skilled at unseating your mounted opponents.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +1.
Benefits: When charging an opponent while mounted and wielding a lance, resolve the attack as normal. If it hits, you may immediately make a free bull rush attempt in addition to the normal damage. If successful, the target is knocked off his horse and lands prone in a space adjacent to his mount that is directly away from you.
It has SIX prerequisites. Is it really that hard to take someone out of their saddle?
Is there another mechanic such as a drag or grapple that would do?
Level one spell Grease on the saddle. A generous DM will make the horse and rider roll reflex to keep it from slipping. A less generous one will only make the rider.
Bullrush them off the horse ?
Drag, reposition, & bull rush on the rider all ought to work, as they can move the rider from his mount's space, and it's hard to be mounted if you aren't actually on the mount.
I let someone use trip to unseat a rider in a 3e game; not sure if I would do the same in PF or not. Probably -- all those polearms with trip got their hooks in order to pull down riders, IIRC. It's not like the game needs another combat maneuver and the traditional chain of feats (Improved, Greater, Quick, etc). (I tend to think bull rush, reposition, and drag are too many separate options to move a person around, & could use some combining.)
I'd likely let the rider add any military saddle bonus to Ride to their CMD, or even use 10+ their Ride score in place of CMD.
Bullrush only moves a rider one square (unless you roll well) so, since they get to determine which square they start in, you could theoretically bullrush them right back onto their mount?
Yeah Military saddle bonus would make sense as would a ride check...
Is there an actual Paizo approved ruling on this?
It seems that an Overrun might work but then you have to get OVER a size X mount so not many folks going to be able to pull that off?
Kill the mount.
It may seem simple, but if you kill the mount, the rider will fall off. Have you ever fallen (or see someone fall) off a horse? It doesn't exactly feel good.
I agree that mounts are much more squishy than the rider but if you just want him dismounted RIGHT NOW....
No actual Paizo rules for it then?
no Dismount mechanic?
There are no official rules in existence (that I know of) that govern dismounting. This is true for many situations in Pathfinder, such as how to handle fighting at the very edge of a cliff or attempting to cast a spell during a free-fall (if there are such rules, feel free to call me out). There are, however, plenty of guidelines in the rules for DMs to use with these situations. For example, common sense dictates that Acrobatics checks should be made when fighting near the edge of a cliff, and a concentration is called for when casting a spell during a free-fall. It's not written out in the rules anywhere, but they aren't meant to cover every single specific situation that a player will ever come across.
For knocking a mounted rider off his horse, it's the same concept. We can easily use the rules as a guideline to figure out how to handle it. If I were the DM in this situation (assuming that a medium player standing on the ground is trying to knock a medium rider off of a large horse), I'd personally rule that killing the mount, bull rushing the rider, grappling the rider, dragging the rider, or repositioning the rider would all do the trick. Tripping the mount (or somehow causing it to fall prone) would work too, but the trip DC would increase by 4 because the horse has 4 legs. Causing the horse to fall prone would automatically put the rider on the ground too (luckily there IS a rule for this - "if your mount falls in battle"). Even though the horse DOES take up more space than the rider, the rider is still only sitting in 1 square, so that's why I think a successful bull rush should work. In real life if you knock a horse rider sideways even just a few feet, his butt isn't going to simply stop on another part of the horse... he's going down.
If the player doesn't have the Improved version of the maneuver used, however, both the mount and the rider get an attack of opportunity. All damage done by both sources would add to the maneuver's DC. I would also rule that the rider could make an opposed Ride check vs. the maneuver instead of just using his CMD, if he so chooses.
Does this ruling require some DM house ruling? Yes. Is it a balanced governing that makes sense? I think so. Regardless, situations like this REQUIRE DM fiat, and at that point all a DM can do is try to adjudicate a fair ruling.
The bull rush is what we ended up using but then the ride skill and/or the bonus for a military saddle don't come into play as much as maybe they should? And you'd think there might should be a penalty for trying to bullrush an opponent mounted on a trained war mount...
OK Formal call to Paizo staff... We need a Dismount rule in the mounted combat section.
One that takes military saddles and an investment in the ride skill into effect?
Where's James Jacobs when you need him?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.
I think this is an artifact of the 3.5 ruleset and who knows when the rule was yanked, but it seems that it was there at one time. It looks like when you took damage while mounted, you needed a DC5 ride check to stay that way. It may have been a DC5+damage dealt. It may have been too much trouble to have every mounted character make that many ride checks and it was pulled. Whatever the reason, this may be a rule that needs to be revisited and/or clarified. There is no mention of this in the Mounted Combat section of the rules.
Also:
Bill: The blade of this polearm is a curved or hooked chopping blade with a spiked projection on the back of the blade. The spike is commonly used to block and parry. When fighting defensively or with full defense, this weapon gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC. A mounted opponent hit by a bill takes a –1 penalty on his Ride check to stay mounted.
So there are allusions to needing a ride check to stay ahorse but no actual rule for it...
Damn you Cut & Paste!!
There are rules already in place governing when to make ride checks to avoid falling off... the only thing NOT in the rules is what you can do to try and knock somebody off of a mount. But honestly, a combat maneuver makes the most sense, and again I would rule that the rider could choose to make an opposed ride check, which WOULD bring the military saddle into play.
Just so we're clear, the rule for needing to make a DC 5 ride check to stay ahorse when you take damage is still there - though it is just a flat DC 5, whenever a rider takes damage. If you're riding a mount trained for battle, you risk falling off every time you take damage, you automatically fall if you horse goes prone, and you risk falling if you try to make your horse leap but fail the ride check. There are obviously other times to make ride checks, but these are the times in the rules where you are avoiding falling off.
I used a monster with Awesome Blow to knock a rider and his mount prone.
Actually, using the ride check instead of your's or your mount's CMD is a ride unchained bonus, only available to rogues, or using signature skill: ride, after reaching 15 ranks.
15 Ranks: When an opponent targets you or your mount with a bull rush, drag, overrun, reposition, or trip combat maneuver while you are mounted, you can substitute the result of a Ride check in place of your (or your mount’s) CMD.