Spell Perfection + Magical Lineage question

[dbillson]

I have a question about how the relationship between Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection could work.

Consider a 15th level sorcerer (can cast 7th level spells) with the following meta magic feats, with their normal level adjustments without spell perfection taken into account.

Dazing Spell [ + 3 Level Increase ]
Empower Spell [ + 2 Level Increase ]
Quicken Spell [ + 4 Level Increase ]
Maximize Spell [ + 3 Level Increase ]
Intensify Spell [ + 2 Level Increase ]
Selective Spell [ + 1 Level Increase ]

At 15th level, the caster has Magical Lineage (fireball) and Spell Perfection (Fireball).

Spell perfection states that the total level of the spell slot total could not exceed 9. However, is that before or after the magical lineage is added?

For example, could you cast:

Fireball [ Level 3 ], magical lineage
Quicken Spell [ + 0 - apply spell perfection to this feat - however normally it would add 3 with just magical lineage ]
Selective Spell [ + 0 ]
Empower Spell [ + 1 level ]
Intensify [ + 1 level ]
Dazing Spell [ + 2 level ]

Technically this would be a 6th spell slot, and stays under the 9 level requirements for spell perfection (if you assume that magical lineage reduces before doing this check).

Then theoretically you have another full round spell cast that you could do:
Fireball [ Level 3], magical lineage
Maximize Spell [ + 0 - magical lineage]
Dazing Spell [ + 2 ]
Empower [ + 1 ]
Intensify [ + 1 ]
Selective Spell [ + 0 ]

For a level 7 spell slot [ similarly with magical lineage maximize spell would add + 2 so still be under the 9th spell slot requirement ].

Would this be legal in a turn? Or do you calculate the total spell slots that it would use (so as not to exceed 9th) before magical lineage, and then apply that discount. The way I interpret "treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level" is that discount would apply before figuring out if you exceeded the 9th spell slot level.

As a secondary question, am I correct in assuming that Spell Perfection is the total of levels before the discount from Spell Perfection is applied - in the second example I couldn't add a Burning Spell [ + 2 level, + 1 after magical lineage ] to the to the first quickened spell as even though it would still only count as a level 7 spell, the meta magic feat slot total would be 10th level - the spell perfection takes it down to level 7 but my interpretation of the rules is it has to be under 9 before the discount is applied.

Thanks!

[GrenMeera]

Spell Perfection wrote:

Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Magical Lineage wrote:

Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.

Since Spell Perfection asks for the total modified level, I would assume Magical Lineage has already decremented it. Also, Magical Lineage seems quite clear that it is applied before the final adjusted level.

Previous examples of Spell Perfection used on these forums has confirmed your suspicions that the total level is prior to the application of the feat.

I would say that this means that you are correct in both of your assumptions.

[Winterwalker]

In the case of Magical Lineage, it doesn't ask you to apply it's effect on the total first, like Spell Perfection does.

So I would apply ML first to the base spell, and start it one lower, then add more metamagic goodies until you hit the cap of a 9th level slot.

So in essence you get a 10th level slot worth of goodies in a 9th level slot.

[Slacker2010]

dbillson wrote:

stuff /QUOTE]

I don't think magical lineage reduces each meta magic feat by one. I think it's just the total level.

[Winterwalker]

Slacker2010 wrote:

dbillson wrote:

stuff

I don't think magical lineage reduces each meta magic feat by one. I think it's just the total level.

Correct. It is not -1 per effect, just a flat -1 to the end result.

[Winterwalker]

Dazing Spell [ + 3 Level Increase ]
Empower Spell [ + 2 Level Increase ]
Quicken Spell [ + 4 Level Increase ]
Maximize Spell [ + 3 Level Increase ]
Intensify Spell [ + 2 Level Increase ]
Selective Spell [ + 1 Level Increase ]

The above is Not doable. At 15th level, the best(subject to taste) you're going to get in 1 round is:

Fireball [3rd level slot base]
I want at least 1 slot for every spell level to get off an additional fireball per round via Quicken:

Spell Slots
3rd: Fireball, Quicken+0(Spell Power), Still+0(Magical Lineage)
4th: Fireball, Quicken+0(SP), Lingering+1, Flaring+0(ML)
5th: Fireball, Quicken+0(SP), Dazing or Maximize+2(ML)
6th: Fireball, Quicken+0(SP), Burning+2, Flaring+0(ML)
7th: Fireball, Quicken+0(SP), Widen+3, Burning+1(ML) <--fun spell

[Slacker2010]

Winterwalker wrote:

Slacker2010 wrote:

dbillson wrote:

stuff

I don't think magical lineage reduces each meta magic feat by one. I think it's just the total level.

Correct. It is not -1 per effect, just a flat -1 to the end result.

Thought so.

@dbillson, your examples are wrong. With magical lineage you could tack on 10th spell slot for the original 3rd level fireball. So best you could combine is quicken maximized fireball (4+3+3=10)

[GrenMeera]

A Quickened Maximized Fireball is a flat 60 damage.

I've always preferred a Quickened Intensified Empowered Fireball. Yes, it can technically be rolled lower, but it has a mean average of 78. That's 18 more damage on average for the same spell slot and same spell effects.

Plus, if you are using Draconic Sorcerer for bonus damage per die, you get +12 more that you never would have gotten with Maximize (70 with Maximized Fireball, 100 with Intensified Empowered Fireball).

[Winterwalker]

GrenMeera wrote:

A Quickened Maximized Fireball is a flat 60 damage.

I've always preferred a Quickened Intensified Empowered Fireball. Yes, it can technically be rolled lower, but it has a mean average of 78. That's 18 more damage on average for the same spell slot and same spell effects.

Plus, if you are using Draconic Sorcerer for bonus damage per die, you get +12 more that you never would have gotten with Maximize (70 with Maximized Fireball, 100 with Intensified Empowered Fireball).

Again, subject to taste :) Sometimes the dice hate you.

[dbillson]

OK, that's for the reply/clarification.

I reviewed it with my wife who had no clue what it said, but agreed that the "its" refers to the spell and not the metamagic feat (I guess this is why grammar is important).

Thanks for the help and clarification - I think a lot of people are doing this wrong :)

[The Sleeping Dragon]

heads up i know this is an old post but i was just checking your numbers, and i dont know if maybe they changed it due to this very same combo, but your numbers are off. Empower is a +2 to spell level, and Selective is a +1. Just thought id give you a heads up.