Hello folks, was wondering if anyone with a similar build could offer me any advice here. I'm a long time D&D player but new to Pathfinder (and thusly the various new combat options like Drag etc) so my opinion on the merit of certain feats is possibly a bit skewed.
We're currently playing the original Pathfinder campaign (kicks off in Sandpoint) so no spoilers please! :)
Currently at level 2 Ranger, the build as it stands.
Half-orc Ranger
Str 19 (+2 str racial and all further pts will be going here)
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 10
I have the Toothy (1d4 primary bite attack), Brute and Big Game Hunter traits.
Favoured enemy is Human.
Feats & Powers:
Power Attack
Natural Combat Style & Aspect of the Beast.
The plan at 3rd and 4th level is to dip into barbarian for Fast movement, Uncanny Dodge, Rage and Lesser Fiend Rage Totem giving me, at 4th level the following attacks
Normal : Claw +9 x 2, 1d4+5 (+7 1d4 +9 with PA)
Bite +9, 1d4+5 (+7 1d4 +9 with PA)
Raging : Claw +11 x 2, 1d4+7 (+9 1d4 +11 with PA)
Bite +11, 1d4+7 (+9 1d4 +11 with PA)
Gore +6, 1d8+3 (+4 1d8 + 7 with PA) the dm and I have both agreed the Gore attack would be too powerful at this level as a further primary attack so have houseruled it a secondary attack
Obviously, at 4th level, this is pretty powerful. It's strength will wane as our levels increase and the full-on barbarian begins to outstrip my damage however the events thus far in the campaign have really set him up for this path nicely
My plan for him is as follows -
3 - Improved Overrun (Barbarian 1)
4 - (Barbarian 2)
5 - (Ranger 3) Endurance and Shapeshifter Form: Jackal to combine with Improved Overrun and Charge Through
The idea at this point - a green brute whose body undergoes a swift change to allow him to basically charge through lackeys unhindered (no AoO for Jackal Form) to get a beafy raging Great Axe attack before dropping weapon to get stuck in with 4 attacks.
6 - (Ranger 4)
7 - Lunge (Ranger 5)
8 - Improved Natural Weapon Claw (Ranger fighting style) Ranger 6
My quandry, or question really, is just how good is Charge Chrough in a build like this. For anyone else who has had a similar build/idea - what are the inherit weaknesses. I'm concerned about AC, naturally, as without Dodge and Mobility my AC (breastplated)will be pretty low when charging and provoking AoO without Form of the Jackal.
An alternative feat progress I had considered was the Drag line, which would work very well with Lunge I would reckon for pulling mooks into our meleee heavy party (me, barbarian, another 2 weapon ranger, and a druid's badger). The synergy there is quite strong - as opposed to me running off through bad guys to get to the caster/charge target I would be encouraging a tighter a unit to take advantage of flanking bonuses by dragging bad guys in amongst us all. That progression goes along the lines of
3-4 same as above with Barbarian etc however instead of Improved Overrun
take Die Hard at 3 (which I've been put off of after reading how it's usefulness diminishes in later levels) and Improved Drag at 5, greater drag at 7 and finally Lunge at 9.
So I would activate jackal form, grab the guy, drag him back without provoking attacks from him or his companions while the dragged get's AoO on him from all my companions and then everyone get's stuck in. While not as glorious as personally running through a bunch of guys to take down annoying foes, it would seem to have a greater range of usefulness.
However, being new to PF 3.5, I may be overestimating the usefulness here so any advice would be greatly appreciated! :)
Is Half-Orc a must?
What books are available?
What races are available?
Well he's nearly third level already so unless there's some miraculous dungeon event to change my race - aye, HO is a must. :)
Our Dm is fairly generous when it comes to discussing additions to the game, so consider all content available as long as it's not stupidly overpowered!
Well, the Totem Warrior archetype Barbarian is the choice for you.
"A barbarian often has a special totem that is the patron of her tribe.
While individual totems vary, those in the tribe that call upon a totem receive similar abilities. Totem warrior barbarians can select from the following rage powers.
Rage Powers: The totem warrior is based entirely upon his totem rage powers. In addition to the totem powers themselves, the following rage powers complement the totem warrior archetype (depending on the totem chosen): animal fury*, low-light vision*, night vision*, raging climber*, raging leaper*, raging swimmer*, and swift foot*."
Hmmm not sure how that would tie in with my stated progression? There's only two levels of Barbarian in there, allowing one Rage Power, all the other level ups are in Ranger (namely for the Favoured Enemy bonuses, Natural Weapon Combat bonus feats, Shifter bonuses and of course flavour).
Unless I'm reading that description wrong, which I might be as it seems a little ambiguous, this doesn't benefit a 2 splash barbarian at all?
Extra Rage Power feat. With no restrictions on the Totem Rage Powers.
While Extra Rage Power feat would be nice it still wouldn't allow me to take Rage Powers I didn't meet the barbarian level requirements for, so I would be stuck with the Ex. Rage Powers (or the ones on the Totem Warrior archetype list), none of which are particularly worth a feat considering I already have a constant bite attack from the toothy trait.
I still don't see how this benefits the build (drag and overrun natural weapon bruiser) unless I'm being particularly dense or my opening post was a case of tl/dr? =/
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Well I am currently playing a similar nat weapon ranger build (I went Rogue instead of barbarian for the intimidate line though) and can give you a little advice on your build.
first, never take improved natural attack. All it does is up your claws from a d4 to a d6 which is a net gain of 1 pt of damage, not worth the feat.
Also the Shapeshifter line is also a trap and I highly recommend you don't take it. It's only 1x a day and improves so slowly you'll never need it. Plus it requires you to give up your Favored terrain ability which can be obscenely powerful if you use it correctly.
If you are concerned about moving through space without provoking use invisibility, you can move further (40ft instead of 20ft), and with a decent stealth roll no one will ever see you charge the boss from the rear.
As for the charge through build, it is a unique idea and should probably work the way you want. However the bigger problem with charge builds isn't creatures in the way it's difficult terrain. Your build doesn't have anything to let it get past that.
I'd highly recommend picking up Dragon Style which will let you charge through difficult terrain & friendly occupied squares(you'll have to burn a feat for Improved unarmed strike but it's worth it and also opens up the Feral Combat training feat later).
My personal recommendation is to go 2 levels barb, 4 levels ranger (with the Guide Archetype if possible) and then spend the rest of your time as a Horizon Walker.
You'll get a more flexible version of Favored Enemy on top of a superior version of it as well, plus significant terrain bonuses (a flat +20 to initiative, perception, stealth and Survival is nice) and some awesome spell-like abilities including immunity to fatigue and exhaustion (rage cycling is now possible for you).
Well I am currently playing a similar nat weapon ranger build (I went Rogue instead of barbarian for the intimidate line though) and can give you a little advice on your build.
first, never take improved natural attack. All it does is up your claws from a d4 to a d6 which is a net gain of 1 pt of damage, not worth the feat.
Also the Shapeshifter line is also a trap and I highly recommend you don't take it. It's only 1x a day and improves so slowly you'll never need it. Plus it requires you to give up your Favored terrain ability which can be obscenely powerful if you use it correctly.
If you are concerned about moving through space without provoking use invisibility, you can move further (40ft instead of 20ft), and with a decent stealth roll no one will ever see you charge the boss from the rear.As for the charge through build, it is a unique idea and should probably work the way you want. However the bigger problem with charge builds isn't creatures in the way it's difficult terrain. Your build doesn't have anything to let it get past that.
I'd highly recommend picking up Dragon Style which will let you charge through difficult terrain & friendly occupied squares(you'll have to burn a feat for Improved unarmed strike but it's worth it and also opens up the Feral Combat training feat later).My personal recommendation is to go 2 levels barb, 4 levels ranger (with the Guide Archetype if possible) and then spend the rest of your time as a Horizon Walker.
You'll get a more flexible version of Favored Enemy on top of a superior version of it as well, plus significant terrain bonuses (a flat +20 to initiative, perception, stealth and Survival is nice) and some awesome spell-like abilities including immunity to fatigue and exhaustion (rage cycling is now possible for you).
This is
the build I'm going for. I'm level 3 at the moment and seems like it will be fun and painful. Any other advice you might have. My campaign is the Jade Regent setting.|
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To really maximize the Horizon Walker build a two level dip into rogue is almost mandatory. Being able to spend a feat to get another favored terrain (and increase ALL your existing terrains by +2 is too good to pass up).
Also be extremely careful in your terrain selection order. Urban & Underground need to be your first two terrains taken so your bonus against 80% of the average challenges you meet will be at the highest bonus possible. From there it's AP specific choices and I haven't really looked over that AP much.
Finally, while leveling up remember you will be a bit squishy compared to other frontliners, so if you decide to attack something don't EVER hold back. You do so much damage anything you attack is going to focus on you with everything it has. You'd better kill it before it kills you.
To really maximize the Horizon Walker build a two level dip into rogue is almost mandatory. Being able to spend a feat to get another favored terrain (and increase ALL your existing terrains by +2 is too good to pass up).
What feat is that? And why Rogue?
I am thinking about a Half-Orc Ranger for our next campaign that takes Toothy and Natural Attack style. Was going to dip into Barbarian for a couple of levels also for the extra speed and rage.
-- david
Papa.DRB
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To really maximize the Horizon Walker build a two level dip into rogue is almost mandatory. Being able to spend a feat to get another favored terrain (and increase ALL your existing terrains by +2 is too good to pass up).What feat is that? And why Rogue?
I am thinking about a Half-Orc Ranger for our next campaign that takes Toothy and Natural Attack style. Was going to dip into Barbarian for a couple of levels also for the extra speed and rage.
-- david
Papa.DRB
The reason you want to dip rogue is to get access to the Rogue Talents. There is a talent there called Terrain Mastery which gives you an extra favored terrain and increases all existing favored terrains by +2. You can take this talent as many times as you want.
The feat you want is Extra Rogue talent so you can take the above talent multiple times.Once you get 3 levels into Horizon Walker you can now use your favored terrain bonus as your favored enemy bonus so you stack the bonus on those as high as you can. By 10th level you can conceivably have a +10 to a +12 on Attack Bonus, Damage, Perception, stealth, Bluff, Sense Motive & knowledge checks. You can also get half that bonus added to your Armor Class and CMD as well if you can spare a feat.
Best part is you aren't gimped waiting for this level to happen. You are still a powerful character leveling up you just get OMGWTF potent the minute you hit 10th level.
Well I am currently playing a similar nat weapon ranger build (I went Rogue instead of barbarian for the intimidate line though) and can give you a little advice on your build.
first, never take improved natural attack. All it does is up your claws from a d4 to a d6 which is a net gain of 1 pt of damage, not worth the feat.
Also the Shapeshifter line is also a trap and I highly recommend you don't take it. It's only 1x a day and improves so slowly you'll never need it. Plus it requires you to give up your Favored terrain ability which can be obscenely powerful if you use it correctly.
If you are concerned about moving through space without provoking use invisibility, you can move further (40ft instead of 20ft), and with a decent stealth roll no one will ever see you charge the boss from the rear.As for the charge through build, it is a unique idea and should probably work the way you want. However the bigger problem with charge builds isn't creatures in the way it's difficult terrain. Your build doesn't have anything to let it get past that.
I'd highly recommend picking up Dragon Style which will let you charge through difficult terrain & friendly occupied squares(you'll have to burn a feat for Improved unarmed strike but it's worth it and also opens up the Feral Combat training feat later).My personal recommendation is to go 2 levels barb, 4 levels ranger (with the Guide Archetype if possible) and then spend the rest of your time as a Horizon Walker.
You'll get a more flexible version of Favored Enemy on top of a superior version of it as well, plus significant terrain bonuses (a flat +20 to initiative, perception, stealth and Survival is nice) and some awesome spell-like abilities including immunity to fatigue and exhaustion (rage cycling is now possible for you).
Awesome, just what I was looking for! Thanks for the input!
Is the shifter line really that bad though? Keep in mind I'm more about flavour than eeking every possible bonus through diversifying - as long as I don't end up gimp of course!
So with that in mind I'm not sure if Horizon Walker (as great as it is!) is the best fit... I could maybe make it work. I'll have to reconsider some character hooks though. But anyway, back to Shifter forms - jackal, cat and dragon form all smell pretty tasty to me.
At 14th (12th Ranger) level I would be able to use heightened jackal+cat form movement to navigate around the battlefield twice a day for a combined total of 24+wis (x 2) rounds, combined with Imp. Overrun and Charge Through.
Your point about doing it unhindered by terrain is a good one though and it makes me think I'll have to reconsider the whole build entirely and drop my idea of using Lunge + Improved Drag and eventually Greater Drag and Quick Drag (which would work brilliantly with all my natural attacks) in favour of Dragon Style... or just forget about this charging around idea.
The problem I have of giving up the drag line is that it's incredibly useful for moving large+ targets into melee range for the rest of your team if you have Lunge. An ogre or giant getting your team down? "Come ere you!" With rage, Aspect of the Bear, Bless, Enlarge, Haste and Drag feats you can get a fairly respectable CMB bonus, enough to have afair chance to drag around a giant or two. And pulling frontline enemy fighters into completely flanked positions isn't to be scoffed at.
Maybe I should just drop the whole charge through/shifter idea and focus on a H. Walker drag around build.
What were your choices for the natural weapon fighting feats as you levelled your ranger? Weapon Focus and more Aspect of the Beast (further +2 init and survival bonus)?
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The drag line is interesting but don't forget you can't affect any target more than 1 size category larger then yourself and you can only move your target and yourself in a straight line backwards. So to move it into flank your party members are actually going to have to flank you first then you pull it between them which makes it significantly harder to pull off (sets all 3 of you up for a cleave attack). The reposition line lets you move it around a bit more freely and that might fit what you're after a bit closer.
Also with the significant Giant presence in that AP unless you are getting constantly enlarged (1 round cast for that spell so you and the caster do nothing for the whole first round of combat) don't expect to be able to do this trick often.
My issue with the shifter line isn't the duration it's the fact that it's once per day. That means you get to do this one fight per day until the end of the AP then you can do it twice. If your real interest in this is to avoid getting AoO'd as you move around the battlefield then I HIGHLY recommend you look into either Panther Style Or Snake Style.
Panther Style: If someone tries to hit you with an AoO you hit them first and give a -2 to their Hit and damage.
Snake style: Someone tries to hit you at all you make a skill check and shoot your AC through the roof (equal to your sense motive check) and when they miss you get to hit them back, Twice. After the first time someone tries to hit you and eats all that damage they won't dare try again.
As for feats you take these three in this order:
Aspect: Claws
Eldritch Claws
Improved Vital Strike
Claws is basic and the reason we play this combat style. Eldritch Claws lets us hit as magic and silver so we blow through the most common DR's and are always doing full damage.
Improved Vital Strike is surprisingly good once you get past 11th level. At this point fights become more mobile and you get less chance to full attack so your damage drops. When you get into one of those fights you pull out your +1 Vicious backup weapon (GreatAxe, Falchion or Earthbreaker) and start swinging it. Doing 3D12/6D4/6D6 +x every round is actually respectable especially when you have the Horizon Walker Favored enemy bonus behind it.
The drag line is interesting but don't forget you can't affect any target more than 1 size category larger then yourself and you can only move your target and yourself in a straight line backwards. So to move it into flank your party members are actually going to have to flank you first then you pull it between them which makes it significantly harder to pull off (sets all 3 of you up for a cleave attack). The reposition line lets you move it around a bit more freely and that might fit what you're after a bit closer.
Also with the significant Giant presence in that AP unless you are getting constantly enlarged (1 round cast for that spell so you and the caster do nothing for the whole first round of combat) don't expect to be able to do this trick often.
I don't consider size much an issue unless we're talking about Cloud and Storm giants though, unless PF giants are different? If memory serves me well most giants are merely large. With Lunge, reach also won't be an issue as I'll have a 10 reach on tap myself. Now getting things into a flanking position is tricky but I'm trying to envision us as a tight-knit fighting unit. Tight enough so that even if I cannot drag something directly into a flanking position - I can at least drag it into a position making it easier to be flanked with 5' steps. It's early days yet and I'm going to have to make my intentions known obviously to the rest of the frontliners so they can help keep space free for me and not hug my butt. As long as there is a space for me, between at least two of my party, I can reposition myself with a 5' move so that I'm dragging in the desired direction (with quick drag...though I'm still not certain how the Quick version of the CMB's work in regards to movement allowed etc). If you take multiple attacks then really, you're denied movement, so not sure how you can drag or reposition someone? I think I'll raise that question seperately.
Reposition is better for this, granted, but sadly as it stands my Int isn't high enough for Combat Expertise given our build point totals. My Wisdom got the love, as I knew I would need every little bit of help with 2 lvls of ranger and 2 lvls of barb offering 0 will save at level 4 and I never concerned myself with worrying about picking up any of the CE chains.
My issue with the shifter line isn't the duration it's the fact that it's once per day. That means you get to do this one fight per day until the end of the AP then you can do it twice. If your real interest in this is to avoid getting AoO'd as you move around the battlefield then I HIGHLY recommend you look into either Panther Style Or Snake Style.
Panther Style: If someone tries to hit you with an AoO you hit them first and give a -2 to their Hit and damage.
Snake style: Someone tries to hit you at all you make a skill check and shoot your AC through the roof (equal to your sense motive check) and when they miss you get to hit them back, Twice. After the first time someone tries to hit you and eats all that damage they won't dare try again.
As awesome as Snake Style is it's a hefty 5 feat investment and 9 ranks in a non class skill. That's too steep for my blood. But to be honest I was really more concerned about getting AoO as I ran around with a charge build, which you have kinda put me off with the points you've made regarding terrain etc.
Thanks again for the input Mathwei, you've certainly given me some stuff to mull over! :)