Gunslingers for Hakken

[KestlerGunner]

Mergy wrote:

Actually, a musket master has no choice in which Rapid Reload he gets: it specifically calls it out as musket (so no starting off with Rapid Reload: Double-Barrel Musket).

From the PRD entry for Musket Master.

"Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat."

Does muskets mean just musket or any weapon titled a musket?

[Mergy]

KestlerGunner wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Actually, a musket master has no choice in which Rapid Reload he gets: it specifically calls it out as musket (so no starting off with Rapid Reload: Double-Barrel Musket).

From the PRD entry for Musket Master.

"Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat."

Does muskets mean just musket or any weapon titled a musket?

Since the Rapid Reload feat calls out that it only applies to a single weapon, I believe that ability is only meant to apply to the single-barreled musket.

[Jamie Charlan]

bdk86 wrote:

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Comparison vs. Crossbowmen Stuff

I did the Crossbowmen vs. Bow math before building my own crossbowman. The raw damage output is greater for a bow, if every shot hits. A Vital Strike/Deadshot/Rogue Dip for Sneak Attack build holds a steadier (and greater) DPS in the long run

If both have Weapon Training 1 and Weapon Focus. Stats remain the same, at 18 dex 10 strength.

Target at level 10, has AC 24, no resistance to the damage. The bonus dice can come from anywhere, whatever. Crits are accounted for as well

Vital Strike, +2 damage dice,Deadly Aim, Dex +4, Point-Blank using a +2 HXB 27.28 DPR

Change nothing else, replace Vital with rapid-shot [one free feat left, aren't I nice?]
Using a Longbow +2 instead of Crossbow 35.36 DPR

If ALL that changes is one feat and the weapon, you're already up by 8.08 DPR, a just under 1/3 improvement over crossbows. That's taking the miss rate into account, too, though even at higher ACs, there's plenty of bonuses to be had that just aren't being counted here.
This number will only grow as the static bonuses improve.

Vital strike looks decent at level 1, which is before you can actually put it to any use, and I'm being rather generous towards the crossbow here; the bow did not even take manyshot, and lacks bow-only extras such as bracers of archery. If you used that feat on manyshot, DPR is 40.31 for Bow.

Crossbow falls rather flat once you're exchanging extra hits at +x each for a single hit that adds its one die two, three or four times. Even Gravity Bow fails to help much, as the bow gets the bonus several times over. Even that training bonus means more to the iteratives of the bow than it could ever hope to do for the vital-striker crossbow.

Really, even for a Thief, you just can't keep up with multiple attacks for long.

There is ONE build that can pull it off, though it will still fall flat versus a Paladin Smite Evil archer there: Combine your favorite single-shot weapon with the Marksman psionic class: the Augmented Shot sniper effect improves the base damage of the weapon. With this, Vital Strike finally becomes a real contender.

But its a very specific thing to just keep up with any old class that decided to go "hey, this feat here says I'll shoot another arrow with my bow" with little further thought, and it requires starting by dipping Gunslinger and using double-barrels [as the double-fire effect gets applied to that single-attack-action vital strike and augmented shot use together] to actually get there.

[kaisc006]

TWF is horrible for a gunslinger before 13th level. The chance for misfire is too high, attack bonus too low, and feat tax too high. If they're using a double barreled pistol they risk their weapon exploding. Also, playing a gunslinger is much more tricky than an archer due to range requirements and aggro. Most GMs will target your gunslinger (understandable since you're in close range blasting away with a wierd weapon).

Could someone please link where it's said weapon cords do not prevent reloading in a PFS game? I have a 5th level pistolero and will not be dual-wielding regardless, but the weapon cord RAW gives GMs permission to rule out finer actions. I would never dual wield in PFS because I figured GMs had the right to rule reloading as a finer action right?

[Emil Refn]

Michael Brock wrote:

Weapon cords do not prevent reloading. As for defining what finer actions are, I am going to stay away from that at the moment as it would create an incredibly long list.

[kaisc006]

Emil Refn wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Weapon cords do not prevent reloading.

Ahh thank you!

The argument over two-weapon fighting order of attacks was clarified by Jason Bulhman HERE.

Also, I keep seeing people state a gunslinger expending 100+gp in a round. In PFS, alchemical cartridges cost 50% base price (6gp per shot). Yes it's still expensive but not unmanageable.

[Jiggy]

kaisc006 wrote:

The argument over two-weapon fighting order of attacks was clarified by Jason Bulhman HERE.

Hm... He references what it says in the Beta. Would you happen to know if the text is the same now as in the Beta? If so, we have intent. If not, then for all we know they changed their minds. (For instance, if the text changed from "which set of attacks to use first" to the current "which weapon to strike with first", that would show a complete reversal of intent.)

Any Beta players happen to know?

[andersen]

kaisc006 wrote:

Emil Refn wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

Weapon cords do not prevent reloading.

Ahh thank you!

The argument over two-weapon fighting order of attacks was clarified by Jason Bulhman HERE.

Also, I keep seeing people state a gunslinger expending 100+gp in a round. In PFS, alchemical cartridges cost 50% base price (6gp per shot). Yes it's still expensive but not unmanageable.

also, it is good to still have gunpowder and shots with you as well, no need to reload using alchemical cartridges after an encounter.

and if you've taken rapid reload you can use gunpowder and shots as a move action (with pistols at least) so if you are positioned well-- and dont need to move, you can shoot and reload the old fashioned way in your turn. of course, this only works well at lower levels...

[kaisc006]

Jiggy wrote:

Hm... He references what it says in the Beta. Would you happen to know if the text is the same now as in the Beta? If so, we have intent.

The intent is clear and RAW backs this up: "If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." pg. 187 CRB

So like Jason said the correct way is to strike with one weapon first, go through all its attacks highest to lowest, then switch to the other weapon from highest to lowest.