Still not sure how natural attacks work...

[Redwidow]

Herllo all!

I was wondering if I could get clarification on how natural attacks work, as well as pounce, rake and free grapples. I would like to use the tiger as an example for my inquiries.

First, if a tiger makes a full attack, he gets 2 claws and a bite. are all 3 attacks done at the stated BAB in the bestiary or does it get -5 to 2 out of 3 attacks?

Second, when it gets a free grapple if it successfully hits, does it loose the rest of its attacks? Say it hits with a bite, does it loose the 2 claw attacks and instead tries a grapple? If it tries to grapple with that bite, do you use that original die roll and substract 20 or do you roll a new die?

When a tiger charges it gets to pounce and rake, does that mean it gets 5 attacks?

Is the rake attack the two rear paws attacking?

[Shfish]

1. You use the numbers listed in its full attack entry..it should be right. By default if an attack is a primary natural attack, you do not take a penalty. If secondary you have the -5...it is not based on how many attacks you have.

2. If you establish a free grapple it is a special thing and does not remove your ability to finish the attack sequence...but now you need to use the rules for your remaining attacks with any penalties for attacking in/out of a grapple.

3. Pounce with rake means yes, 5 attacks and the rakes are the hind legs.

[Redwidow]

The tiger's entry says +10 for 2 claws and +9 for bite. If it makes a regulaer attack vs a full attack, it does not add or remove bonuses.

If all creatures have their stats entered correctly, when does the -5 penalty apply then?

thanks for your help,

Ben

[erian_7]

The -5 applies when a creature's natural attack is Secondary. A pony, for instance, has an attack of:

2 hooves –3 (1d3)

It's attack roll is a -3 because the hooves are considered a secondary natural attack (+1 BAB +1 Strength mod -5 secondary attack penatly). "Secondary" has nothing to do with when the attack occurs in a round. It has to do with how adept the creature is at using the attack.

[Shfish]

...which is contradicted in the natural attacks section of the beastiary that says if you only have one type of attack, even if there are multiples, you make it at full BAB...this I believe is a carry over from 3.5 days...

[Are]

The pony has the "Docile" ability, meaning its natural attacks always count as secondary unless it's war-trained.

[Are]

Redwidow wrote:

If all creatures have their stats entered correctly, when does the -5 penalty apply then?

The Bestiary monsters that have secondary attacks (as per the table under "Natural Attacks" in the Bestiary Glossary) have the -5 penalty already applied to their statblocks. It's necessary to point it out in the rules, however, for several reasons:

- Some feats reduce or remove the penalty for attacking with secondary natural attacks. If you give a creature these feats (or remove them), you need to know what to change.

- If you make a new monster, you need to know which attacks should get the -5 penalty, if any.

- If a PC attacks with natural attacks, such as through the wild shape class feature, you need to know which attacks should get the -5 penalty.

- If a creature/PC attacks with manufactured weapons and natural attacks together, all natural attacks count as secondary.

(there are probably other reasons I didn't remember right now, as well)