Hello once again fellow world builders and sacks of meat,
If you couldn't guess from my name, I like gore. I like blood. Not the real stuff, but the fictional horror movie/violent game stuff. (I actually find real gore/death looks fake, which is kind of funny when you think about it. We see fake gore so much that real gore starts to look fake).
Anyway, I want to make PF combat a little more brutal. A little more gory. I want more limbs removed, more grievous wounds, etc.
So I picked up "Torn Asunder" for PF, a 3rd party book that expands the crit system to include a lot of the stuff I like.
Problem is, you have to crit the creature and beat the AC by 5 just for a minor wound, 10 for a big wound, and 15 for a critical wound.
Odds are you are rarely going against things that you can hit by 15.
I also, personally, don't like the additional damage provided by crits. It swings fights a bit too much.
So here's my idea:
Get rid of true crits. Make it so ANYTIME you hit by 5 or more (then 10, then 15, or adjust these numbers to be slightly lower) you get one of the "Critical effects" from the Torn Asunder book.
This would likely lead to a lot more broken limbs, a lot more missing fingers, a lot more scars and cool stories.
Thoughts?
How pissed would you be if your character lost a limb? Assuming, of course, you have options for magical replacement.
Do you like damage penalties, or are you just going for description?
Inclusion of damage penalties fundamentally changes the game. They're cool, but I want to know which conversation we're having!
I was considering removing the ability for magical healing to regrow limbs.
I've actually been toying with removing magical healing all together, or reducing its power severely.
I would give Clerics the ability to spontaneously cast their domain spells in replacement.
Do you like damage penalties, or are you just going for description?
Inclusion of damage penalties fundamentally changes the game. They're cool, but I want to know which conversation we're having!
Well, in Torn Asunder, injuries range from skill penalties to combat penalties, along with Con loss from bleeding.
The combat penalties can be harsh, The lowest is -2 to attack, and multiple injuries on different limbs can stack.
Two bad crits/injuries could see a player at -6 to hit very easily.
Leg injuries are also super nasty. You lose speed, stability, you get like -10 on movement related skill checks
It definitely adds a lot of crunch to the combat.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Who needs mechanics?
I often compare the amount of damage done vs HP left, and describe accordingly. So 24 HP damage vs 100 HP? "You thrust as he tries to get out of the way. Your thrust pops off links of armor and opens a wicked gash on his chest."
24 HP vs 30 HP? "You stab deep into his chest, causing blood to bubble from his mouth, likely having collapsed a lung. He's still standing, but definately seen better days."
24 HP vs 12 HP? (had this happen saturday) "The dire rat looks up and a squeek sounding vaugely like 'mommy' comes out right before you cleave it in twain."
Who needs mechanics?
I often compare the amount of damage done vs HP left, and describe accordingly. So 24 HP damage vs 100 HP? "You thrust as he tries to get out of the way. Your thrust pops off links of armor and opens a wicked gash on his chest."
24 HP vs 30 HP? "You stab deep into his chest, causing blood to bubble from his mouth, likely having collapsed a lung. He's still standing, but definately seen better days."
24 HP vs 12 HP? (had this happen saturday) "The dire rat looks up and a squeek sounding vaugely like 'mommy' comes out right before you cleave it in twain."
I need mechanics to see how long my players can survive when their arm gets cut off and they're bleeding to death.
I need to know how much of a minus to hit they get when I crit their eye and burst it.
I need to know how hard it is for a guy to hold a weapon if he's missing 3 fingers.
This isn't just for death blows, this is about combat where characters lose limbs PERMANENTLY.
I would go with damage vs. thresholds on Constitution score, then.
< Con Score = Least wound type
> Con Score = Ouch
> 2 x Con Score = More ouch
etc.
You'd need to categorize how bad the wounds are.
The Torn Asunder book already has classifications for injuries based on body location and damage type, so that's covered.
A minor injury is usually about a -2 to attack and -4ish to skills.
A moderate injury is upwards of -4 to attack and -8ish to skills.
A major injury means the limb has probably been removed or made completely useless (bones crushed, joints pierced, etc)
Even without magical healing, there are lots of options to create alternate limbs.
They world would still have magic, so necrotic grafts, construct arms, etc would be possible.
And in PF, a full day of bed rest under the care of someone with Heal can heal 4 HP per level per day, so recovery without magical healing isn't TOO bad.
I actually like the idea of more downtime, it allows crafters and such time to do their thing and it's not like we have to RP 3 sessions of healing time.
I can easily simply go "It will take a month for you to fully recover" and just skip ahead in time to the end of that month.
I could also add non-magical healing classes, like the Apothecary from Torn Asunder.
The Torn Asunder book already has classifications for injuries based on body location and damage type, so that's covered.
A minor injury is usually about a -2 to attack and -4ish to skills.
A moderate injury is upwards of -4 to attack and -8ish to skills.
A major injury means the limb has probably been removed or made completely useless (bones crushed, joints pierced, etc)
So, do you think the Constitution thresholds idea will work?
Also, since you are including magic, you ought to force a concentration check for casting while wounded. Make sure the DC is challenging muttermutter stupidconcentrationcheckDCs...
Without it, you're giving casters an edge on something that really should belong to the beefier classes.
Also, congratulations on having a username apropos to the thread topic!
The Torn Asunder book already has classifications for injuries based on body location and damage type, so that's covered.
A minor injury is usually about a -2 to attack and -4ish to skills.
A moderate injury is upwards of -4 to attack and -8ish to skills.
A major injury means the limb has probably been removed or made completely useless (bones crushed, joints pierced, etc)
So, do you think the Constitution thresholds idea will work?
Also, I presume you are playing with some casters, so you ought to force a concentration check for casting while wounded. Make sure the DC is challenging muttermutter stupidconcentrationcheckDCs...
Without it, you're giving casters an edge on something that really should belong to the beefier classes.
There are rules for the problems that missing limbs and injuries cause to spell casting.
There's also rules for scars that can really maim a high-CHA skill character.
I think the Con threshhold could actually work well, I'm going to do some play testing with some dice in my head while at work.
I think the Con threshhold could actually work well, I'm going to do some play testing with some dice in my head while at work.
Report back! Damage penalties have vexed me for a long time.
Fleshgrinder, you might like to take a look at the Hârnmaster rules. Completely different from Pathfinder but with no HP and a graphical wound system (including severed limbs, bleeding and instant death) which actually works quite nicely and is playable. You accrue separate wounds like a severe cut to the left forearm. Healing is also much slower and magical healing typically just speeds healing up a little.
see http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9298.phtml for a review of the combat system.
Well, one issue is I think we're kind of mixing styles here.
I believe you're thinking of a vitality/wound type system, where as I'm talking about a system that puts wounds ON TOP of the existing HP system.
Putting one of my players, 6th level, against the attacks of a Cave Giant (CR 6). Over the course of 20 rolls, my results were as followed:
--
In a system where you combine HP with wounds, there were 10 misses, 6 hits that only did HP damage, 3 minor wounds, and 1 moderate wound. (Using the 5< Min, 10< Moderate, and 15< Major)
---
In a system where only wounds exist and it is determined by the Con modifiers you outlined, my results on the same test were as followed (obviously this is based on damage done, instead of hit roll like the other system)
Of 10 hits, 3 were minor wounds (less than or equal to Con), 7 were moderate (greater than Con, less than double) and no major wounds took place.
---
If we used the Torn Asunder wound effects, in the Con system that player would be effectively useless. Since every wound in Torn Asunder has a debilitating effect, there's no room for "normal hits".
You'd have to use a different wound system if you went with Con values.
There's also rules for scars that can really maim a high-CHA skill character.
Arrgh. Always been a pet peeve. Cha != physical beauty. Scarring someone isn't going to automatically lower their charisma.
Ok, done ranting now.
The rules speak about how some cultures are going to see scars differently.
But, even a guy who's Charisma is ALL charm and no looks is still going to get a big negative reaction from a horrible scar.
The one they showed in the book was an entire half of an elf's face burned into the consistency of pocked leather. Even Tony Robbins would lose some of his charm if he had hamburger for a face.
The Cha penalties only apply to the use of social skills, I should have mentioned that.
They also don't apply to every culture (for example, orcs would see scars as signs of pride and it could even INCREASE your Cha skills when dealing with them.)
The effects on characters are all skill or attack related, there is no direct reduction of ability scores other than Con damage from bleeding in the Torn Asunder book.