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The Minotaur Double Crossbow (from Classic Monsters Revisited) is a curious weapon. It's an exotic 1d8 ranged weapon with a -8 non-proficiency penalty and a flat -2 on all attack rolls through it. But most importantly, "if the attack is successful, the target takes the listed damage twice, although critical hits and precision damage only apply to one off the bolts. Reloading a double crossbow takes 2 standard actions (one for each bolt), although the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to 2 move actions."
Now, combine this with Crossbow Mastery, and suddenly, in 5 feats, you can, for many intents and purposes, fire 4 bolts every round. This doesn't break the game, but it does make crossbows a truly viable alternative to bows for dedicated archers. Bow-wielders will always be more accurate, will crit harder, and require fewer feats, but a Minotaur Double Crossbow wielder will have a definite damage-dealing edge in a mid-level game.
And, just for added lulz, if one were to further combine this with a Sohei... It baffles the mind.
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I remember there being some thread about the legality of combining the 2xbow's doubling ability, gravity bow and the Vital strike chain.
Not sure if it was ever determined to be legal, but really cool to consider.
Since Crossbow Mastery has Rapid Shot as a prereq, by the time that Vital Strike becomes an option, it'll be doing substantially less damage than a normal full attack. Now, if you don't want Crossbow Mastery and are only going to use a given MDC once per combat, then Vital Strike is certainly valid.
But Gravity Bow is, in fact, freaking ridiculous.
There is one particularly ancient thread asking if MDCs are legal to begin with, since they're technically from a 3.5 source. But it's also worth noting that they're a) in the Pathfinder Player Companion series and b) allowed in PFS, which is generally strict about this kind of thing.
The minotaur part is left out and its a straight -4 to attack even if proficient but according to d20pfsrd the double crossbow is in the APG and thus absolutely legal.
aren't there some favored class bonuses that allow you to reduce the nonproficency penalty by 1 each level until it reaches 0?
that would allow a max of 2 bolts not 4, in cases like with spell bolts or poisoned bolts numbers are important, also at lower level, just let the bolts deliver area effect to improve their danger and it goes well maybe even if you miss a few times
I don't know the rules of it, but maybe True Strike would also consider all four bolts shot like this as one attack
aren't there some favored class bonuses that allow you to reduce the nonproficency penalty by 1 each level until it reaches 0?
It's not a non-proficiency penalty, you just take a -4 to attack wit it because it's huge.
Don't feel like navigating the SRD, so I use d20pfsrd:Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.
Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.
It's just there, added onto the non-proficiency penalty.
Also, emphasis mine. As has already been stated, you can't fire 4 bolts/rd with it. You get 1 move and 1 standard per round which means eventually you get one shot per turn of both slots, which is good for sniping but not for just about anything else.
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aren't there some favored class bonuses that allow you to reduce the nonproficency penalty by 1 each level until it reaches 0?It's not a non-proficiency penalty, you just take a -4 to attack wit it because it's huge.
Don't feel like navigating the SRD, so I use d20pfsrd:Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.
Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.
It's just there, added onto the non-proficiency penalty.
Also, emphasis mine. As has already been stated, you can't fire 4 bolts/rd with it. You get 1 move and 1 standard per round which means eventually you get one shot per turn of both slots, which is good for sniping but not for just about anything else.
This is for the double crossbow, which is a distinct, different weapon.
This is for the double crossbow, which is a distinct, different weapon.aren't there some favored class bonuses that allow you to reduce the nonproficency penalty by 1 each level until it reaches 0?It's not a non-proficiency penalty, you just take a -4 to attack wit it because it's huge.
Don't feel like navigating the SRD, so I use d20pfsrd:Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.
Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.
It's just there, added onto the non-proficiency penalty.
Also, emphasis mine. As has already been stated, you can't fire 4 bolts/rd with it. You get 1 move and 1 standard per round which means eventually you get one shot per turn of both slots, which is good for sniping but not for just about anything else.
Actually no it's not. The double crossbow in the APG is the updated MDC. The old one only had you take a -2 penalty to it's attack even if you were proficient and you never could get below the double move reload because it was a 3.5 product.
Even proficient wielders take a –2 penalty on their attack rolls. If the attack is successful, the target takes the listed damage twice, although critical hits and precision-based damage are only applied to one of the bolts.Reloading a double crossbow takes 2 standard actions (one for each bolt), although the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to 2 move actions (meaning that it can be accomplished in 1 round).
You don't use the MDC, you use the APG DC which is an updated version for PFRPG
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You don't use the MDC, you use the APG DC which is an updated version for PFRPG.
A) Find some RAW that says that, and you'll have made your case. Until then, similarity is not errata. Sure, Kikko Armor may be remarkably similar to and strictly better than scale, but that doesn't mean that it's replaced it.
B) The MDC is still specifically allowed in the additional resources for PFS, which, if nothing else, lends substantial credence to its overall legality. But ultimately, outside of public play, what's allowed and disallowed is completely the realm of GMs.