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This came up in our game yesterday and generated some debate.
The situation:
Party was in combat with a dragon. One of the party gish casters had cast mirror image on himself to try to soak some the dragons physical attacks.
The debate was over whether or not the dragon could tell the real target from the figments through blind sense, there by avoiding the "miss chance" of hitting an image.
The DM's initial call was that blind sense allowed the dragon to pinpoint the target as he had line of effect and there was no concealment. The player(s) argued that as the figments mimiced the caster's sounds and movements the dragon would have to close his eyes and take the resulting 50% concealment to avoid the images.
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
And for completeness of discussion:
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
I'm also curious at to the thought on this. This should have come up in my game two days ago, but I never even thought to question it and let the spell work normally.
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Blindsense doesn't allow anyone to bypass normal miss chance. Why would it allow you to bypass the "miss chance" of mirror image?
Congratulations, you've used your blindsense to pinpoint which square he's in, good luck attacking the right image.
I don't see anything in Blindsense that allows the dragon to bypass the spell in any way. It allows a dragon to know the location of the Mirror Imaged person but he already knows it simply by looking at the caster. The Mirror image effect states that is it in the same square as the caster. Blind sense already tells the dragon that the caster is in that square. Since blnd sense specifically says cover is still valid I see no reason that the Mirror Image would not work.
Cover is usually (but not always) a static, visual only blockage. If normal foliage can block sight and cause concealment I don't see why illusions wouldn't.
Yes the dragon knows which square the caster is in. But all the images are in that square too so it doesn't really help.
Note that if the caster was invisible, he would still get full proitective value from his invisibilty spell combat wise, just that the dragon would not have to guess what square to strike at due to Blind Sense.
The same should apply to Mirror Image, assuming that the dragon is not immune to illusions for some other reason.
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Blindsense is of no use against Mirror Image. Blindsense allows you to pinpoint the square of any creature within the effective range of the ability, but if you can't see the creature, you still suffer a 50% miss chance due to its total concealment from you.
Mirror Image is a visual effect which takes place in a character's square. Blindsense tells you that yes, there's only one person in that square rather than 5 or 6 identical people, but it doesn't help you pick the correct target out of the images - it simply isn't that precise.
Scent would have the same problem, as it allows you to pinpoint targets within 5 ft., but doesn't allow you to ignore the concealment of those targets, or spells such as Mirror Image.
In the situation you outline, the dragon could either take his chances with the Mirror Image, or instead close his eyes, pinpoint with blindsense and suffer a 50% miss chance on all attacks. Note that if he misses by 5 or less on an attack he destroys an image whether he can see them or not, but that he won't destroy any images if he misses due to concealment.
A creature with blindsight, of course, could close their eyes and attack the target with no miss chance, ignoring the Mirror Image spell entirely.
Blindsense does not bypass mirror image.
Just adding my name to the list. :)
To complicate things a little further. Under the rules for figments it states you cannot "copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it".
Therefore, if an illusionist goes out of his way to experience blindsight, through a polymorph spell or whatever, he could trick a creature's blindsight.
Often blindsight is sound based (in such instances, silencing the area can stop blindsight from working), and since to illusions make the same sound as you, by experiencing blindsight, you could easily tweak the sound they give off to fool blindsight.
At least that's my reading of it :) What do others think?
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To complicate things a little further. Under the rules for figments it states you cannot "copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it".
Therefore, if an illusionist goes out of his way to experience blindsight, through a polymorph spell or whatever, he could trick a creature's blindsight.
Often blindsight is sound based (in such instances, silencing the area can stop blindsight from working), and since to illusions make the same sound as you, by experiencing blindsight, you could easily tweak the sound they give off to fool blindsight.
At least that's my reading of it :) What do others think?
No dice with Mirror Image, at least, as it specifically states in the spell;
'An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect.'
Other illusions are likely at GM's discretion.
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In the situation you outline, the dragon could either take his chances with the Mirror Image, or instead close his eyes, pinpoint with blindsense and suffer a 50% miss chance on all attacks.And attendent penalties to his defenses against all the other people beating on him.
Indeed. For the bigger dragons, though, it may be worth the risk - they don't have any Dex bonus to lose, so all they end up doing is giving opponents +2 to hit their generally decent AC and open up the chance of sneak attack (which most parties should be obtaining through flanking anyway, if they're even slightly co-ordinated). The biggest loss is that they no longer threaten, but they only get one AoO a round anyway.
To complicate things a little further. Under the rules for figments it states you cannot "copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it".
Therefore, if an illusionist goes out of his way to experience blindsight, through a polymorph spell or whatever, he could trick a creature's blindsight.
Often blindsight is sound based (in such instances, silencing the area can stop blindsight from working), and since to illusions make the same sound as you, by experiencing blindsight, you could easily tweak the sound they give off to fool blindsight.
At least that's my reading of it :) What do others think?
No dice with Mirror Image, at least, as it specifically states in the spell;
'An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect.'
Other illusions are likely at GM's discretion.
I see your point, though I took that to mean if you can't "percieve" the images they obviously can't fool you. E.g. if someone cast Deeper Darkness and you can no longer see the illusion only total concealment would apply. But that fooling blindsight would be the same thing as seeing the illusion. But I guess that's a point of view...
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I see your point, though I took that to mean if you can't "percieve" the images they obviously can't fool you. E.g. if someone cast Deeper Darkness and you can no longer see the illusion only total concealment would apply. But that fooling blindsight would be the same thing as seeing the illusion. But I guess that's a point of view...To complicate things a little further. Under the rules for figments it states you cannot "copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it".
Therefore, if an illusionist goes out of his way to experience blindsight, through a polymorph spell or whatever, he could trick a creature's blindsight.
Often blindsight is sound based (in such instances, silencing the area can stop blindsight from working), and since to illusions make the same sound as you, by experiencing blindsight, you could easily tweak the sound they give off to fool blindsight.
At least that's my reading of it :) What do others think?
No dice with Mirror Image, at least, as it specifically states in the spell;
'An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect.'
Other illusions are likely at GM's discretion.
As far as I see from Mirror Image, the wording means that it *only* fools one sense - sight. Other illusions may be able to fool multiple senses, depending on spell level, but Mirror Image can't be tailored. If you're perceiving the creature through any sense other than sight, the illusion doesn't affect you. Blindsense, blindsight and scent are all senses other than sight.
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Combat Reflexes.Indeed. For the bigger dragons, though, it may be worth the risk - they don't have any Dex bonus to lose, so all they end up doing is giving opponents +2 to hit their generally decent AC and open up the chance of sneak attack (which most parties should be obtaining through flanking anyway, if they're even slightly co-ordinated). The biggest loss is that they no longer threaten, but they only get one AoO a round anyway.In the situation you outline, the dragon could either take his chances with the Mirror Image, or instead close his eyes, pinpoint with blindsense and suffer a 50% miss chance on all attacks.And attendent penalties to his defenses against all the other people beating on him.
With the bigger dragons that I mentioned (generally Adult and up), for the most part their Dex is too low to benefit from Combat Reflexes.
I absolutely agree that blindsense is of (almost) no use against mirror image.
But could the dragon not close his eyes (as a free action), attack (alas with a 50% miss chance) and open his eyes again at the end of his turn and avoid further penalties to his defenses? I bet this question was answered before, but I dare to ask , nevertheless.
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I absolutely agree that blindsense is of (almost) no use against mirror image.
But could the dragon not close his eyes (as a free action), attack (alas with a 50% miss chance) and open his eyes again at the end of his turn and avoid further penalties to his defenses? I bet this question was answered before, but I dare to ask , nevertheless.
Alas, to the best of my knowledge there is no clear answer to your question anywhere in the rules. The whole 'how long are you allowed to close your eyes for?' question is just never addressed.
I've seen many GMs (myself included) say that you have to choose at the start of your turn whether you're going for eyes closed, eyes averted, or eyes open, and that condition lasts until the start of your next turn, but the rules are silent on how all that's supposed to work.
To complicate things a little further. Under the rules for figments it states you cannot "copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it".
Therefore, if an illusionist goes out of his way to experience blindsight, through a polymorph spell or whatever, he could trick a creature's blindsight.
Often blindsight is sound based (in such instances, silencing the area can stop blindsight from working), and since to illusions make the same sound as you, by experiencing blindsight, you could easily tweak the sound they give off to fool blindsight.
At least that's my reading of it :) What do others think?
No. Blindsight has different ways of working, and some monsters don't even say how theirs works, while some monsters will say it is sound based. Blindsight is also not a sense, in the same manner that touching or smelling is. Even so it is more like a radar than anything else. Unlike the smell or sight it is not a characteristic that is actually a party of any creature.
But could the dragon not close his eyes (as a free action), attack (alas with a 50% miss chance) and open his eyes again at the end of his turn and avoid further penalties to his defenses? I bet this question was answered before, but I dare to ask , nevertheless.
While I cannot link to it, I am nearly sure that a dev posted that to take advantage of the benefits that 'closing your eyes' in combat gives you, you have to also take the negatives until the start of your next combat round.
So in essence, you cannot 'just close your eyes long enough to help and not to have it hurt you'.
Much how like the penalties from power attack stay once you have used it in a round.
Regards Mirror Image only fooling 1 sense, that being sight, it doesn't actually state that. In fact, it states that it also mimic's the sound you create. So that's two at the minimum. Though I'd take a ruling that those were the only two senses it fools.
Regards Blindsight not being considered a sense (not in the normal sense???), I'd have to disagree. Obviously it's different to smell or sound. But it's still a sense and illusions are meant to fool senses. It also appears in the "Senses" location for creatures.
Certain illusion spells specify certain senses that they fool (Major Image being able to fool all... other than touch anyways). Blindsight seems to be a highly attuned sense (or combination of senses) other than sight.
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation.
I guess the caster of the illusion could only fool forms of blindsight that he's experienced (i.e. vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation) AND only if the illusion he chooses to cast fools the basic senses that that type of blindsight is based on.
I do accept that many creatures do not have their blindsight specified. But the rules do seem to suggest that you should make a judgement on how a specific creature's blindsight works, since it states under blindsight:
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight IF it relies on hearing.
I guess a GM at that point needs to decide whether it works on hearing or some other sense. And therefore, maybe make a ruling as to how that particular blindsight works and what makes sense given the creature in question. (the RAW just don't cover that, like so many other intricacies)
I still think you could make a case for fooling blindsight under certain circumstances.
Id say blindsight and scent both beat it, and closing your eyes does, albeit with the associated penalty...hey 50% miss chance, is better than 87% and why they have decided you need to close your eyes for the whole round, I have no idea.
Scent: you have to be 5ft away only, When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
Blindsight. Using nonvisual senses, dont need to make a perception, being invisible, dark, etc doesnt affect it....so bypass mirror image no problem
I also dont get why suddenly mirror image benefits from natural and armour bonuses which it technically does if your AC is 37 and only a hit on 32 or better destroys an image....whereas in 3.5 they have AC of ~15
Boy i sound bitter. I am finding Mirror image to be way overpowered......most creatures stand no chance against it, even in the 13th level of AP I am Gming.
Pinpoint. whatever that means in PF.
To take precise aim at: sounds as though that ignores MI to me!!
Regards Mirror Image only fooling 1 sense, that being sight, it doesn't actually state that. In fact, it states that it also mimic's the sound you create. So that's two at the minimum. Though I'd take a ruling that those were the only two senses it fools.
Regards Blindsight not being considered a sense (not in the normal sense???), I'd have to disagree. Obviously it's different to smell or sound. But it's still a sense and illusions are meant to fool senses. It also appears in the "Senses" location for creatures.
Certain illusion spells specify certain senses that they fool (Major Image being able to fool all... other than touch anyways). Blindsight seems to be a highly attuned sense (or combination of senses) other than sight.
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation.I guess the caster of the illusion could only fool forms of blindsight that he's experienced (i.e. vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation) AND only if the illusion he chooses to cast fools the basic senses that that type of blindsight is based on.
I do accept that many creatures do not have their blindsight specified. But the rules do seem to suggest that you should make a judgement on how a specific creature's blindsight works, since it states under blindsight:
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight IF it relies on hearing.I guess a GM at that point needs to decide whether it works on hearing or some other sense. And therefore, maybe make a ruling as to how that particular blindsight works and what makes sense given the creature in question. (the RAW just don't cover that, like so many other intricacies)
I still think you could make a case for fooling blindsight under certain circumstances.
Echolocation is not a characteristic that something can possess, while smell is. You can have smell attached to you. You can have a certain texture attached to you. You can't have echolocation attached to you.
Echolocation is just a method of finding things. It is basically a natural radar.The deafening thing actually proves my point. Blindsight works in various ways. Even when it is sound based you can't really beat it by being quiet. You have to block the medium by which it works. Now if a version of blindsight worked by smell, and you could block smell for an area, then that would work. You will never find a rule saying blindsight, can be defeated by an illusion because it can't.
Id say blindsight and scent both beat it, and closing your eyes does, albeit with the associated penalty...hey 50% miss chance, is better than 87% and why they have decided you need to close your eyes for the whole round, I have no idea.
Scent: you have to be 5ft away only, When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
Blindsight. Using nonvisual senses, dont need to make a perception, being invisible, dark, etc doesnt affect it....so bypass mirror image no problem
I also dont get why suddenly mirror image benefits from natural and armour bonuses which it technically does if your AC is 37 and only a hit on 32 or better destroys an image....whereas in 3.5 they have AC of ~15
Boy i sound bitter. I am finding Mirror image to be way overpowered......most creatures stand no chance against it, even in the 13th level of AP I am Gming.
Pinpoint. whatever that means in PF.
To take precise aim at: sounds as though that ignores MI to me!!
The "entire round" thing is not an official rule, but it makes sense. While we take turns at the table, the characters are not taking turns. While you are closing your eyes someone may be attacking you so it makes sense that you would lose dex against them.
Pinpoint in pathfinder just means you know what square they are in. If it was that precise blindsight would not be needed.
Mirror Image is powerful, but that does not change the way it works.
PS:(not directed @ novalord):A dragon would not have to close his eyes if he had blindsight. His sight is saying I see 8 of you. Blindsight says he(the caster) is really 4 feet to the left.
PS:Novalord wait until your players combine mirror image with displacement, then you have to deal with the miss chance from displacement before you can even hope to pop an image. :)
The spell Echolocation:
Echolocation: You can perceive the world by creating high-pitched noises and listening to their echoes. This gives you blindsight to a range of 40 feet. The echo-producing noises are too high-pitched to be heard by most creatures, and can only be detected by dragons, other creatures with this ability (such as bats), and creatures with hearing-based blindsense or blindsight. You cannot use this ability if you are deaf, and cannot detect anything in an area of silence.
The Illusion Spell Silence (which silences an area):
Silence: Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
Therefore you can use an illusion spell to fool some forms of blindsight.
Also, radar, natural or otherwise, is a sound based means of detection (vibrations in the medium of air).
Also, I'm not talking about negating blindsight. I'm talking about having illusions give off sound to fool what someone with sound-based-blindsight sees. For that, you don't have to do anything with the medium, as you put it, just have an illusory sound source outputting the illusory sense it's based on (i.e. the Major Image or Mirror Image if it can mimic sound).
No. Blindsight has different ways of working, and some monsters don't even say how theirs works, while some monsters will say it is sound based. Blindsight is also not a sense, in the same manner that touching or smelling is. Even so it is more like a radar than anything else. Unlike the smell or sight it is not a characteristic that is actually a party of any creature.
Echolocation is not a characteristic that something can possess, while smell is. You can have smell attached to you. You can have a certain texture attached to you. You can't have echolocation attached to you.
Echolocation is just a method of finding things. It is basically a natural radar.The deafening thing actually proves my point. Blindsight works in various ways. Even when it is sound based you can't really beat it by being quiet. You have to block the medium by which it works. Now if a version of blindsight worked by smell, and you could block smell for an area, then that would work. You will never find a rule saying blindsight, can be defeated by an illusion because it can't.
To compare echolocation to radar is fairly deceptive, at least if you intend to imply echolocation works differently than vision.
Radar works by detecting reflected radio waves.
Echolocation works by detecting reflected sound waves.
Vision works by detecting reflected light waves.
So, really all three work basically the same. With echolocation, the reflected sound waves are detected by a sensory organ much in the same way the eyes detect light waves. Echolocation is very much a sense in the same way vision is, or if you prefer, it utilizes a sense in the same way vision does.
An illusion that can fool your ears by making sounds can fool echolocation the same way. Of course, a caster that doesn't know what a thing "sounds" like to a creature utilizing echolocation couldn't create a convincing illusion, but that's already addressed in the rules.
According to the PRD, Bindsight uses "nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation..." If an illusion can fool the sense or senses that blindsight uses, it can fool blindsight.
Touché Quantum Steve, Radar does indeed use radio waves. So... I feel stupid! :D
Don't know why I thought radar was just Sonar in air. Apparently, that's called Sodar (which is the equivalent for echolocation I guess). Well, you learn something new every day.
Other than that, it seems like you agree with all my other posts (in this thread). Nice to know I'm not alone anyways :)
If it's radar based blindsight, visual illusions could fool it if the caster has experienced radar based blindsight.
If it's sound based blindsight, illusions that create sound could fool it if the caster has experienced sound based blindsight.
sorry for threadknap
so i am running session 56 of kingmaker tonight
given the above i realise that against the 3 or 4 players with MI up then (with 6-8 images each), 'brutes' are doooooommmeeeddd
A dragon
A plant
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sorry for threadknap
so i am running session 56 of kingmaker tonight
given the above i realise that against the 3 or 4 players with MI up then (with 6-8 images each), 'brutes' are doooooommmeeedddA dragon
** spoiler omitted **A plant
** spoiler omitted **
The dragon will just have to take its chances. If within 5ft of an opponent, it can shut its eyes and pinpoint via scent for the 50% miss chance.
The plant...if it closes its 'eyes' and locates via tremorsense it will bypass Mirror Image.
And don't forget that true seeing ignores Mirror Image completely, for those high-level casters! (Or erinyes..)
The spell Echolocation:
Echolocation: You can perceive the world by creating high-pitched noises and listening to their echoes. This gives you blindsight to a range of 40 feet. The echo-producing noises are too high-pitched to be heard by most creatures, and can only be detected by dragons, other creatures with this ability (such as bats), and creatures with hearing-based blindsense or blindsight. You cannot use this ability if you are deaf, and cannot detect anything in an area of silence.The Illusion Spell Silence (which silences an area):
Silence: Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use Spell Resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and Spell Resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.Therefore you can use an illusion spell to fool some forms of blindsight.
Also, radar, natural or otherwise, is a sound based means of detection (vibrations in the medium of air).
Also, I'm not talking about negating blindsight. I'm talking about having illusions give off sound to fool what someone with sound-based-blindsight sees. For that, you don't have to do anything with the medium, as you put it, just have an illusory sound source outputting the illusory sense it's based on (i.e. the Major Image or Mirror Image if it can mimic sound).
I was speaking of illusions such as figments since that is what you referenced before. You also once again support my argument. The illusion is question is not imitating blindsight. It is blocking the medium through which it operates.
Touch is governed by how things feel. You can describe it as well as you can describe how someone sounds or looks. How exactly to you describe the blindsight of a person?
No. Blindsight has different ways of working, and some monsters don't even say how theirs works, while some monsters will say it is sound based. Blindsight is also not a sense, in the same manner that touching or smelling is. Even so it is more like a radar than anything else. Unlike the smell or sight it is not a characteristic that is actually a party of any creature.Echolocation is not a characteristic that something can possess, while smell is. You can have smell attached to you. You can have a certain texture attached to you. You can't have echolocation attached to you.
Echolocation is just a method of finding things. It is basically a natural radar.The deafening thing actually proves my point. Blindsight works in various ways. Even when it is sound based you can't really beat it by being quiet. You have to block the medium by which it works. Now if a version of blindsight worked by smell, and you could block smell for an area, then that would work. You will never find a rule saying blindsight, can be defeated by an illusion because it can't.
To compare echolocation to radar is fairly deceptive, at least if you intend to imply echolocation works differently than vision.
Radar works by detecting reflected radio waves.
Echolocation works by detecting reflected sound waves.
Vision works by detecting reflected light waves.
So, really all three work basically the same. With echolocation, the reflected sound waves are detected by a sensory organ much in the same way the eyes detect light waves. Echolocation is very much a sense in the same way vision is, or if you prefer, it utilizes a sense in the same way vision does.
An illusion that can fool your ears by making sounds can fool echolocation the same way. Of course, a caster that doesn't know what a thing "sounds" like to a creature utilizing echolocation couldn't create a convincing illusion, but that's already addressed in the rules.
According to the PRD,...
I see you also don't like reading post. Stop trying to disagree, just because its me, and read what I write, thanks.
Touché Quantum Steve, Radar does indeed use radio waves. So... I feel stupid! :D
Don't know why I thought radar was just Sonar in air. Apparently, that's called Sodar (which is the equivalent for echolocation I guess). Well, you learn something new every day.
Other than that, it seems like you agree with all my other posts (in this thread). Nice to know I'm not alone anyways :)
If it's radar based blindsight, visual illusions could fool it if the caster has experienced radar based blindsight.
If it's sound based blindsight, illusions that create sound could fool it if the caster has experienced sound based blindsight.
That is not the original arguement. I am not saying blindsight can't be fooled. I am saying it can't be fooled by copying it, which was the original argument. Now if you are saying illusions can duplicate effects that can block blindsight then I agree.
i appreciate dragons are fine, as are proper spell users and certain other 'creature types'
most are scuppered, no matter what there CR (as i noted in the spoiler above....it isnt really a dragon, just says it is in the AP)
thanks for all input
Im pretty sure plants really arent fooled by mirror image, as they cant 'see' it
im thinking paizo adherence to 'monster rules' really doesnt fit ( a T Rex doesnt have +37 perception in my mind! BUT thats for another thread
Ill leave you to ponder further your blindsense discussion
That is not the original arguement. I am not saying blindsight can't be fooled. I am saying it can't be fooled by copying it, which was the original argument. Now if you are saying illusions can duplicate effects that can block blindsight then I agree.Touché Quantum Steve, Radar does indeed use radio waves. So... I feel stupid! :D
Don't know why I thought radar was just Sonar in air. Apparently, that's called Sodar (which is the equivalent for echolocation I guess). Well, you learn something new every day.
Other than that, it seems like you agree with all my other posts (in this thread). Nice to know I'm not alone anyways :)
If it's radar based blindsight, visual illusions could fool it if the caster has experienced radar based blindsight.
If it's sound based blindsight, illusions that create sound could fool it if the caster has experienced sound based blindsight.
So first off, I'd just like to say I appreciate all your feedback and I do enjoy talking about these things with other people. Often the Rules As Written don't go into everything as well as we'd like and that's when different people have different views on how things go from there. I find it very interesting hearing those views.
It's very possible that your opinion on this matter is set and that's entirely understandable seeing as most people would view the rules as going no further than illusions can only fool the five basic senses as we ourselves use them day to day, and that blindsight is never once mentioned under illusions.
I think there have also been some misunderstandings throughout the thread. I didn't quite get your point, about smell and touch attaching to you, whereas echolocation doesn't attach to you. Neither light nor sound attaches to you in the same way smell or touch can cling to you, but they do reach you by traveling from a source to your sensory organ. And since echolocation works on sound doing that same thing, only reflected sound of a higher frequency doesn't that just make it a sound based sense. Obviously the sensory organ to process that sound is entirely different from an ear, but that doesn't matter to the illusionist, he just needs to know what type of sound to send out to it.
So with that said, all I'm saying is, I think a case could be made for certain illusions fooling blindsight given a caster having experience with that type of blindsight and an illusion that can trick the sense it is based on, if the GM is ok with it.
The case is made not by referencing one of the rules as written, but by referencing and combining a few of them, as follows:
1) Blindsight is "the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision" examples of which are "sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation". This ability is not magical it is an extraordinary ability. And considering the examples given, there's seems to me to be an understandable means of how it works. That is to say, there's science to it.
2) There exist, illusions that can fool at the very least 3 of the 5 basic senses, hearing, smell and sight. Major Image for example.
3) The caster of an illusion, must first have experienced a type of sense before he can create an illusion that tricks that sense. E.g. If the caster had always been deaf he could not create the illusion of sound. If the caster had always been blind he could not create a visual illusion. This rule might only apply to the basic senses, BUT it never specifically states that. Therefore, if a caster has experienced a sense other than the five basic, run-of-the-mill, senses, it would be possible for him to create an illusion of it IF such an illusion spell existed.
That final point is important. You might say, that no illusion spell does exist that can trick someone's blindsight into seeing something that isn't there (figment) or seeing something that is there as being different (glamer), and leave it at that. But there are illusions (figments and glamers) that trick those same senses that blindsight (in all it's forms) uses to work. So all I'm saying is, if you take it a little further, what's to say those same illusions can't send out sound (much higher pitched for echolocation), light (of the appropriate wavelength e.g. radio waves for radar) or smell to fool the equivalent type of blindsight?
I think, if both GM and Players are OK with that, there's some solid ground to allow it given that interpretation of the RAW. It doesn't even seem a stretch to me. But I'm sure there are others who would just get angry at the thought of blindsight not overcoming illusions and consider it no further. Remember, there are loads of other ways of seeing through illusions, be it through other special creature abilities or spells such as See Invisibility or True Seeing (expensive though), or items like Gem of Seeing. So I don't think the repercussions of allowing it are crazy game changing.
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Arguably True Seeing is a sense which one could be familiar with... Would this logic not allow Illusions to defeat True Seeing?So with that said, all I'm saying is, I think a case could be made for certain illusions fooling blindsight given a caster having experience with that type of blindsight and an illusion that can trick the sense it is based on, if the GM is ok with it.
True Seeing explicitly defeats all illusions in its write-up text. It's basically the ultimate trump card in this situation.
Arguably True Seeing is a sense which one could be familiar with... Would this logic not allow Illusions to defeat True Seeing?So with that said, all I'm saying is, I think a case could be made for certain illusions fooling blindsight given a caster having experience with that type of blindsight and an illusion that can trick the sense it is based on, if the GM is ok with it.
No. Because True Seeing is magical. It automatically distinguishes illusory sound from real sound, illusory light from real light etc. Just as the illusory sound from an illusion can fool you ear, or illusory light can fool your eye, illusory (high pitched) sound can fool your echo-locator. But just as the Magical ability/spell True Seeing reveals the illusory light and sound for what it truly is, it would reveal the high pitched sound sent out to your echo-locator as illusory also. Therefore, True Seeing always trumps illusions.
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3) Greater blindfight WOULD however if you close your eyes (giving them total concealment) allow you to have only a 20% miss chance rather than a 50% miss chance.
Greater Blind Fight also allows you a reroll on the 20% miss, giving you an effective 4% miss chance.
I'll take those odds.
(I have a deaf oracle build I am working on with with tremor sense, greater blind fighting, reach, and a variety of fog spells.)
So first off, I'd just like to say I appreciate all your feedback and I do enjoy talking about these things with other people. Often the Rules As Written don't go into everything as well as we'd like and that's when different people have different views on how things go from there. I find it very interesting hearing those views.
It's very possible that your opinion on this matter is set and that's entirely understandable seeing as most people would view the rules as going no further than illusions can only fool the five basic senses as we ourselves use them day to day, and that blindsight is never once mentioned under illusions.
Blindsight is specifically called out as sometimes using the other senses. It is not a specific sense that does a specific thing. It is just an an special ability that can work in a variety of ways depending on the monster in question that ends up giving the same result. Once monster's might use vibrations in the air, while another's might be sound based, which is why silence shuts it down.
I think there have also been some misunderstandings throughout the thread. I didn't quite get your point, about smell and touch attaching to you, whereas echolocation doesn't attach to you. Neither light nor sound attaches to you in the same way smell or touch can cling to you, but they do reach you by traveling from a source to your sensory organ.
Light is not a sense so that is a faulty argument. As for sound people can sound a certain way. The way someone looks can be described by their appearance. A person's scent can be described by the way they smell. How exactly can you apply blindsight to a person descriptively?
And since echolocation works on sound doing that same thing, only reflected sound of a higher frequency doesn't that just make it a sound based sense. Obviously the sensory organ to process that sound is entirely different from an ear, but that doesn't matter to the illusionist, he just needs to know what type of sound to send out to it
Obviously you are reaching. The fact that blindsight is described as being a higher form of another sense such as hearing, from your own quotes attest to that.
So with that said, all I'm saying is, I think a case could be made for certain illusions fooling blindsight given a caster having experience with that type of blindsight and an illusion that can trick the sense it is based on, if the GM is ok with it.
Give me a description of a tangible that can fool blindsight then. All you have done so far is given me spells that can shut down the medium by which it works, such as the silence spell, and even then that only works on certain creatures.
The case is made not by referencing one of the rules as written, but by referencing and combining a few of them, as follows:
1) Blindsight is "the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision" examples of which are "sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation". This ability is not magical it is an extraordinary ability. And considering the examples given, there's seems to me to be an understandable means of how it works. That is to say, there's science to it.
2) There exist, illusions that can fool at the very least 3 of the 5 basic senses, hearing, smell and sight. Major Image for example.
That only mean that what I said is true, the blindsight is a combination of other sense at times. Sometimes it is an advanced form of another sense, and if you can negate the medium by which it works such as making smell or sound undetectable you can shut it down, but you can never come up with a specific illusion that shuts down blindsight as if it is its own sense, by copying it, with any existing spells because it is not a specific sense. Every example you have used has agreed with what I said. You would have to know the medium though which it operates, and negate that.
3) The caster of an illusion, must first have experienced a type of sense before he can create an illusion that tricks that sense. E.g. If the caster had always been deaf he could not create the illusion of sound. If the caster had always been blind he could not create a visual illusion. This rule might only apply to the basic senses, BUT it never specifically states that. Therefore, if a caster has experienced a sense other than the five basic, run-of-the-mill, senses, it would be possible for him to create an illusion of it IF such an illusion spell existed.
Tell me how one would emulate/copy blindsight then.
But there are illusions (figments and glamers) that trick those same senses that blindsight (in all it's forms) uses to work. So all I'm saying is, if you take it a little further, what's to say those same illusions can't send out sound (much higher pitched for echolocation), light (of the appropriate wavelength e.g. radio waves for radar) or smell to fool the equivalent type of blindsight?
Show me the illusion.
So... I'm not sure we'll ever agree :) Which is fine. But I'll try one more time.
Light is not a sense. True. Though I never said it was. The same way as sound is not a sense. I just said, or tried to anyways, that light and sound travel from a source (or are reflected off of something) and reach a natural detector you have that processes that into information. That act of processing light into information by using your eyes is called sight. Which is a sense. Same as sound being processed into auditory information is called hearing. Which is also a sense.
If your blindsight sensory organ works by detecting and processing vibrations in the air (sound) receives the right sound that sense/sensory organ would see whatever it was receiving. Sound based blindsight would use high pitched sound. But that it still sound. And I can point at loads of illusion spell that create illusory sound.
Your argument that you can't describe blindsight descriptively, is arguably wrong and more importantly, besides the point. Descriptive words were just created by us (who have 5 senses) to describe those senses. It's not these words that are traveling from objects to you eyes or ears, it light and sound.
I'd agree with you if blindsight used a sense other than the basic five.
For instance, Imagine there was a 6th sense called... Blargh :) Everything in the world gave off Blargh particles/rays and some creatures had sensory organs that could detect them. In this case, there is no illusion that could fool ones sense of Blargh. Because Blargh is it's own sense entirely. It doesn't operate on sound (for hearing) or light (for sight). It works on Blargh particles :D (or whatever). And no illusion in the book fools Blargh. If you had a version of blindsight that used this magical 6th sense called Blargh, then sure, no argument could be made for an illusion fooling that.
I hope I didn't get too surreal there.
The fact is sound-based blindsight is just sound. And that's as clear as I can make it. It's the sensory organ that processes it differently that makes it blightsight. And a caster could potentially learn how it processes it, by experiencing it, and therefore give off the right sound to trick it same as tricking your ears into thinking it heard something.
If your blindsight sensory organ works by detecting and processing vibrations in the air (sound) receives the right sound that sense/sensory organ would see whatever it was receiving. Sound based blindsight would use high pitched sound. But that it still sound. And I can point at loads of illusion spell that create illusory sound.
You are assuming blindsight has its own organ. I can bet you that none of those illusory sounds affect blindsight. Only by removing sound, and therefore the medium through which blindsight might operate could you defeat it.
Your argument that you can't describe blindsight descriptively, is arguably wrong and more importantly, besides the point. Descriptive words were just created by us (who have 5 senses) to describe those senses. It's not these words that are traveling from objects to you eyes or ears, it light and sound.
The creation of the words does not change the inherent properties that exist. Blindsight can not be used to describe things like our senses can because it does not describe an inherent property of anything, and without an inherent property to ascribe to, it can not really be copied or generally fooled. Only by finding the sense, such as smell or sound, by which it operates can it be negated. In short any illusion fooling blindsight has to negate the primary sense through which it works.
I'd agree with you if blindsight used a sense other than the basic five.
That is exactly my point. Blindsight is not even its own sense. It is just an enhanced version of the other senses or a combination of them. Even your quotes say that. :)
In order to bypass it, you must negate the sense or senses upon which it relies.
That only mean that what I said is true, the blindsight is a combination of other sense at times. Sometimes it is an advanced form of another sense, and if you can negate the medium by which it works such as making smell or sound undetectable you can shut it down, but you can never come up with a specific illusion that shuts down blindsight as if it is its own sense, by copying it, with any existing spells because it is not a specific sense. Every example you have used has agreed with what I said. You would have to know the medium though which it operates, and negate that.
I'm trying hard to wrap my head around your argument, but your terminology confuses me.
You're saying that illusions that can fool a certain sense, (like hearing,) cannot interfere with blindsight based on the same sense, (like super-hearing) either by creating a false positive (i.e. something that sounds like it's in a certain place, but isn't) or by jamming (i.e. masking sounds of interest with non-relevant sounds.)
If your blindsight sensory organ works by detecting and processing vibrations in the air (sound) receives the right sound that sense/sensory organ would see whatever it was receiving. Sound based blindsight would use high pitched sound. But that it still sound. And I can point at loads of illusion spell that create illusory sound.You are assuming blindsight has its own organ. I can bet you that none of those illusory sounds affect blindsight. Only by removing sound, and therefore the medium through which blindsight might operate could you defeat it.
Your argument that you can't describe blindsight descriptively, is arguably wrong and more importantly, besides the point. Descriptive words were just created by us (who have 5 senses) to describe those senses. It's not these words that are traveling from objects to you eyes or ears, it light and sound.The creation of the words does not change the inherent properties that exist. Blindsight can not be used to describe things like our senses can because it does not describe an inherent property of anything, and without an inherent property to ascribe to, it can not really be copied or generally fooled. Only by finding the sense, such as smell or sound, by which it operates can it be negated. In short any illusion fooling blindsight has to negate the primary sense through which it works.
I'd agree with you if blindsight used a sense other than the basic five.That is exactly my point. Blindsight is not even its own sense. It is just an enhanced version of the other senses or a combination of them. Even your quotes say that. :)
In order to bypass it, you must negate the sense or senses upon which it relies.
It would have to have a sensory organ to work. The same way you can't see with eyes or hear without ears.
I'm glad you agree that blindsight is not really it's own sense it's just an enhanced version of some other sense as that's the premise to everything I've been saying.
To be honest, it mostly sounds like you agree with me. You even say
Only by removing sound, and therefore the medium through which blindsight might operate could you defeat it.
Well, that would fool it into perceiving nothing. As in, if you negate sounds you negate blindsight. You don't have to negate the medium. The medium is just the air and the sound travels through that. If an observer is outside the range of an illusion the light and sound emanating from it still reach him/her. They still see the illusion. The air (medium) has nothing to do with it. Just the sound. Without it, sound-based blindsight fail to work. And if you learn how to give off sound that processes correctly into blindsight then that would fool it too. The same way a TV throws light at our eyes to see stuff...
And of course blindsight would describe things differently than our senses. You'd have to actually be a bat to know what echo-location looked/felt like. We know it would describes things like distance to objects, size of object, obstacles and so on. You don't get color from it. I believe the RAW even say that last part. So it obviously describes the environment around you. You'd just have to polymorph yourself into a bat to experience echo-location or have that druid spell cast on you to know what it felt like, so that you could send out the illusory sound that describes the environment in terms of echolocation.
Yeah I have to say I'm not fully following your logic wraithstrike. I agree with you that Blindsight doesn't necessarily have its own organ (though it can in some versions), I still fail to see how that is relevant to figments?
Blindsight can not be used to describe things like our senses can because it does not describe an inherent property of anything, and without an inherent property to ascribe to, it can not really be copied or generally fooled.
But there are inherent properties that Blindsight is ascribing to. Take, for instance, echolocation. Using echolocation, you are describing the reflective nature of the object's frame. You are describing the elasticity and denseness of it's atomic material. You are describing surface planes of the object. There are properties of the object that are being related back to the user through their sense organ.
Now, I do agree that it is not often its own organ and it often uses another medium. I wouldn't even call it a sense unless it had an organ to match. In many situations, it is sound and it is picked up by the ears (just highly sensitive ones).
If a spell can create sound, it can create the reflected sound waves that describe a surface material. I see no reason why not.
However, in order to do it correct, you must have experience with this "sense". I would say the caster must either have an equivalent Blindsense that works functionally the same, or has been temporarily altered to be a creature that does. Otherwise, they would have no bearing on how sound waves describe planar properties. This would be GM discretionary.