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What if you are granted a bonus feat without having to meet the prerequisites. Can you then take feats requiring that feat as a prerequisites and ignore prerequisites that would normally be required for the original feat?
For example, if I receive Two-Weapon Fighting, as a bonus feat via the 2nd level Ranger class ability, can I then take Double Slice without having to meet the prerequisite of Dex 15, or do I require a Dex of 15 to take it as a regular feat, even though I already have Two Weapon Fighting?
RAW it looks like you'd need the prereqs for all feats that aren't bonus feats, unless they errata'd that somewhere. If you aren't playing PFS, ask your DM. I'd allow it ;o
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Actually, I am playing PFS, which is why I'm here. Otherwise, I would ask my DM, but she's not even sure herself. I feel like it wouldn't be necessary to meet prerequisites for a feat you've already obtained, but Double Slice still technically has the prerequisite if you look at the long description as opposed to the feat chart, which only lists Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite.
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There is some contention on this, but to many players this line indicates that you can ignore prereqs on combat style feats even if you aren't taking them as bonus feats:
He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites
Some argue that this only applies to bonus feats, some that it is a perk of the combat style class feature. I can't find anything in the FAQ or errata that clarifies the issue. I caution anyone against making decisions in PFS relying on shaky rules interpretations, however, as you can find the proverbial rug pulled out from under you if a clarification comes down that reverses your build.
In response to your more general question, the main text overrules the chart. You would need everything explicitly listed for the feat you want to take.
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There is some contention on this, but to many players this line indicates that you can ignore prereqs on combat style feats even if you aren't taking them as bonus feats:
He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisitesSome argue that this only applies to bonus feats, some that it is a perk of the combat style class feature. I can't find anything in the FAQ or errata that clarifies the issue. I caution anyone against making decisions in PFS relying on shaky rules interpretations, however, as you can find the proverbial rug pulled out from under you if a clarification comes down that reverses your build.
In response to your more general question, the main text overrules the chart. You would need everything explicitly listed for the feat you want to take.
This is an interesting interpretation. I always assumed it was only for combat style bonus feats, but it doesn't technically say that, it just says that you can take feats from the combat style without the prereqs. That says to me that any feats within his chosen combat style can be taken without prereqs, as long as they've been added to the list by being the right level. Good catch.
The combat feats are a class feature that are only given out at certain levels. You can only take those feats without meeting the prereqs when the bonus feat slots open up, and those slot are only for the feats that are listed. Your normally feats are not bonus feats or bonus feat slots.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The combat feats are a class feature that are only given out at certain levels. You can only take those feats without meeting the prereqs when the bonus feat slots open up, and those slot are only for the feats that are listed. Your normally feats are not bonus feats or bonus feat slots.
I really don't like this interpretation. The bonus feat class feature doesn't "turn off" when you are a Ranger 3, otherwise you'd lose your level 2 bonus feat just for being third level. In fact, you have to keep ignoring prereqs continuously or else lose the use of your bonus feats due to failing to have the prereqs.
Your interpretation also seems to say that a multiclassed ranger whose ranger bonus feat level line us with his/her normal feats can use the "ignore prereqs" feature for normal feats as it is "turned on" for that level.
Found this line in the APG that seems to indicate that the never-prereq interpretation is RAI:
The ranger can choose feats from his selected combat style even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
This is from the section on combat styles. So while the CRB can be seen either way, I think the APG comes down on the side of "always ignore prereqs for combat style feats."
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The combat feats are a class feature that are only given out at certain levels. You can only take those feats without meeting the prereqs when the bonus feat slots open up, and those slot are only for the feats that are listed. Your normally feats are not bonus feats or bonus feat slots.I really don't like this interpretation. The bonus feat class feature doesn't "turn off" when you are a Ranger 3, otherwise you'd lose your level 2 bonus feat just for being third level. In fact, you have to keep ignoring prereqs continuously or else lose the use of your bonus feats due to failing to have the prereqs.
Your interpretation also seems to say that a multiclassed ranger whose ranger bonus feat level line us with his/her normal feats can use the "ignore prereqs" feature for normal feats as it is "turned on" for that level.
Found this line in the APG that seems to indicate that the never-prereq interpretation is RAI:
The ranger can choose feats from his selected combat style even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.This is from the section on combat styles. So while the CRB can be seen either way, I think the APG comes down on the side of "always ignore prereqs for combat style feats."
Yeah I think ryric is correct on this one. Even if they only intended for the bonus feats to ignore pre-reqs, as it's written a ranger can ignore prereqs for any of his combat style feats that have been added to his list. This is great for a 2-level Ranger dip, and I don't think it's overpowered or broken or anything.
How are you reading it as they "turn off". That is not what I am saying at all.
Just to be clear I am not saying you need to meet prerequisites for a bonus feat with another bonus feat.
As an example you can take rapid shot as a bonus feat even without taking the other feats that lead up to it, and also without having the necessary prerequisite score.
What I am saying is that your 5th level feat slot is not a bonus feat slot, so any feat chosen with that slot has to meet the prereqs.
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If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times:
Language has rules, not just words. One of those rules is that if a whole paragraph is talking about a specific form of X, and one of the sentences within that paragraph mentions X, that sentence is still assuming every specification made earlier in that paragraph unless stated otherwise.
Writing includes rules like that by definition. Ignore those rules, and you're not looking at "rules as written".
On a related note (and risking a minor thread hijack) - is it possible to use the Improved version of a feat as a prerequisite, even if I don't have the basic version?
More specifically, I have a 5th level ranger (archery combat style) with Point Blank Shot, looking to pick up Improved Precise Shot as a bonus feat at level 6.
Soon I'd like to pick up Clustered Shots (unfortunately not a combat style bonus feat), which has Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as prereq feats - can I use Improved Precise Shot to satisfy the Precise Shot prerequisite?
I plan to consult with my GM, but I'm curious to hear y'all's thoughts on it.
Soon I'd like to pick up Clustered Shots (unfortunately not a combat style bonus feat), which has Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as prereq feats - can I use Improved Precise Shot to satisfy the Precise Shot prerequisite?
Clustered Shots "Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6."
Prerequisites: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."
The fact that Clustered Shots and Improved Precise Shot both share the same prerequisite doesn't mean they both apply as that prerequisite.
For example, Improved Disarm and Improved Feint both have the prerequisite of Combat Expertise. If you get Improved Feint, that doesn't mean you qualify for Improved Disarm, even though they both share the same prerequisites.
Not as I read it - the OP was asking about taking a combat style feat outside of the levels when he would get his bonus feats, and whether he needs to meet prereqs for that. I'm taking combat style feats on my bonus feat schedule, but don't see a reason to take Precise Shot if I can go right to Improved Precise Shot at level 6.
But can I use Improved Precise Shot in place of Precise Shot to qualify for Clustered Shots. In other words, does having the Improved version count as having the basic version of the feat, for prereq purposes?
Any clearer?
Not as I read it - the OP was asking about taking a combat style feat outside of the levels when he would get his bonus feats, and whether he needs to meet prereqs for that. I'm taking combat style feats on my bonus feat schedule, but don't see a reason to take Precise Shot if I can go right to Improved Precise Shot at level 6.
But can I use Improved Precise Shot in place of Precise Shot to qualify for Clustered Shots. In other words, does having the Improved version count as having the basic version of the feat, for prereq purposes?
Any clearer?
I wouldn't allow that. I also disagree that there's no reason to take Precise Shot even if you can get Improved Precise Shot, since the Improved version doesn't remove the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. It only removes the cover penalties and miss chances.
Not as I read it - the OP was asking about taking a combat style feat outside of the levels when he would get his bonus feats, and whether he needs to meet prereqs for that. I'm taking combat style feats on my bonus feat schedule, but don't see a reason to take Precise Shot if I can go right to Improved Precise Shot at level 6.
But can I use Improved Precise Shot in place of Precise Shot to qualify for Clustered Shots. In other words, does having the Improved version count as having the basic version of the feat, for prereq purposes?
Any clearer?
I think he understood you, but chose a different example than you would have liked. In short no, Improved Precise Shot <> Precise Shot in terms of meeting a prerequisite. Just because you have a special ability to skip a prerequisite on a feat (bonus feat from combat style) does not negate the need for that same prerequisite for a different feat.
Also, Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot do different things, and their effects will work in conjunction with each other. If you've got a need for the improved version, you probably could benefit from the base feat too IMO.
Are & Snigg - Thanks for pointing out the difference between the feats - helps me to understand why they wouldn't substitute for each other, as well as why I shouldn't skip Precise Shot...
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Not as I read it - the OP was asking about taking a combat style feat outside of the levels when he would get his bonus feats, and whether he needs to meet prereqs for that. I'm taking combat style feats on my bonus feat schedule, but don't see a reason to take Precise Shot if I can go right to Improved Precise Shot at level 6.
But can I use Improved Precise Shot in place of Precise Shot to qualify for Clustered Shots. In other words, does having the Improved version count as having the basic version of the feat, for prereq purposes?
Any clearer?
Improved Precise Shot has a different game effect than Precise Shot, and Precise Shot's benefit isn't automatically conferred when you take the Improved version. There are two completely separate feats that happen to have similar names due to being in the same feat chain. It does not count for prereq purposes.
Jiggy, I'm not leaving out any context in an effort to be misleading. While I agree that the CRB section can be read either way, the APG section doesn't even mention bonus feats, just combat styles. Here are the full sections quoted, spoilered to prevent wall of text.
At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of the two core combat styles or one of the following new combat styles: crossbow, mounted combat, natural weapon, two-handed weapon, or weapon and shield style. The ranger can choose feats from his selected combat style even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
Lists of the actual feats for each style omitted.
Maybe we should start hitting the FAQ button on this one. Having played in several campaigns with the "always ignore prereqs" interpretation it doesn't really overpower a ranger. Remember a lot of the better feats aren't part of the combat style until 6th or 10th level of ranger so a splash has minimal effect.
What if you are granted a bonus feat without having to meet the prerequisites. Can you then take feats requiring that feat as a prerequisites and ignore prerequisites that would normally be required for the original feat?
For example, if I receive Two-Weapon Fighting, as a bonus feat via the 2nd level Ranger class ability, can I then take Double Slice without having to meet the prerequisite of Dex 15, or do I require a Dex of 15 to take it as a regular feat, even though I already have Two Weapon Fighting?
I don't think anyone's yet addressed the original question.
You can ignore any prerequisites of the first feat which are not also prerequisites of the second feat. So you couldn't take Double Slice without having the appropriate Dex, but you could take Shield Slam even with a Dex of 7 (assuming you had Improved Shield Bash and BAB +6).
I don't think anyone's yet addressed the original question.
I think you've misunderstood the discussion.
A level 2 ranger selects the two-weapon combat style. He gains, as a bonus feat, Two-Weapon Fighting. Because it's a combat style feat, he can ignore the prerequisites for Two-Weapon Fighting, so if his Dexterity score is lower than 15, he can still take and use the feat.
That ranger kills some orcs and levels up. He gains a feat because he reached character level 3.
The answer to whether he can select Double Slice, when he doesn't meet the prerequisite of Dex 15, depends on how you interpret the Ranger Combat Style Feat (Ex) class ability.
If you take the third sentence of the ability out of context and apply it literally, you end up with "He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites." This would mean he can select Double Slice at level 3, even though he does not meet the prerequisites, because Double Slice is a feat from his selected combat style.
However, if you don't take the third sentence out of context, and apply it instead only to the ability (Bonus feats) then the line "He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites" will only apply to the bonus feats he gains at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. This would mean he must meet the prerequisites of any feats he chooses that are not bonus feats, even if those feats are on the list of bonus feats available to his combat style.
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The discussion really hinges upon the way the Combat Style Feat paragraph is interpreted. It can be read as either:
1. Defining a combat style
2. You get bonus feats from the style
3. These bonus feats ignore prereqs
Or:
1. Defining a combat style
2. One perk of the combat style is bonus feats
3. Another perk is ignoring prereqs for the feats in your style
Both versions are legitimate interpretations of the wording so it boils down to what we think RAI is instead of RAW. Both sides can claim RAW backs them.
Grick, I wouldn't say the "always ignore prereq" argument takes the line out of context, it just sees the context as "combat style" instead of "bonus feats."
I wouldn't say the "always ignore prereq" argument takes the line out of context, it just sees the context as "combat style" instead of "bonus feats."
I would. The ability is "Combat Style Feat (Ex)" and it manifests in the form of bonus feats at certain levels.
Taking the third sentence and applying it to all feats the character ever takes is removing it from the context of the Combat Style Feat.
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The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
Emphasis mine.
The ability grants bonus feats. The first sentence informs the second. you there is no "also" or "in addition" that separates it. The only thing this power does is grant bonus feats. It is taking it VERY out of context to suggest otherwise.Edit: @ Jiggy: I know exactly how you feel ;-P
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I would. The ability is "Combat Style Feat (Ex)" and it manifests in the form of bonus feats at certain levels.
Taking the third sentence and applying it to all feats the character ever takes is removing it from the context of the Combat Style Feat.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong. I'm just saying that the alternate interpretation is equally valid.
The alternate interpretation is that the "Combat Style Feat (Ex)" manifests as a combat style and a feat. That the style does something other than grant bonus feats - it also removes prereqs. We're just seeing different contexts.
I think we've reached the point of nitpicking the exact wording to a far greater extent than the author ever intended. Obviously we will all do as we please in home games, and I don't recommend ever doing anything that relies on any shaky rules interpretation in PFS. I've FAQed the thread and explained my position, and I'm fairly certain I understand the other side. I'm not sure arguing over the exactitude of English sentence/paragraph structure is useful.
Any observer who is undecided on this one, neither side's interpretation will break your home game. Go with what seems fun to you.
I don't think anyone's yet addressed the original question.I think you've misunderstood the discussion.
I agree that that's what the discussion is about, but the original question was:
What if you are granted a bonus feat without having to meet the prerequisites. Can you then take feats requiring that feat as a prerequisites and ignore prerequisites that would normally be required for the original feat?
The answer to which is (even for rangers), "You can ignore any prerequisites of the first feat which are not also prerequisites of the second feat."
Now, based on the discussion, rangers may be able to take these feats at any level instead of just when getting a bonus feat. I don't think that's the intended behavior, nor the correct reading, but that's what the discussion is about. Either way, it's irrelevant to the question.
Double Slice for a ranger is a particularly bad example, because if they can ignore the prerequisites altogether, then they could take Double Slice regardless of whether they have Two Weapon Fighting. They could just take it at 2nd level instead of picking up TWF, and have full strength with the off hand and still have the massive two-weapon penalties.
A better example which addresses the question which was actually asked would be any feat that requires TWF which is not on the ranger list (such as Shield Slam).
I never realized how important paragraph structure was to the english language until I tried to dialogue with people on the Paizo boards.
I grew up with an english teacher and a lawyer. Reading some posts with "interesting" interpretations of particular lines of rules makes me want to slam my head against my desk.