ah minute per level is better than round per level definitely.
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Waiting to hear from Immortal about black tentacles interacting with mirror image once I know that I will post my actions accordingly. If Variel is free then Rain will get enlarged as her 20 ft reach will double into a 40ft reach and she will threaten the sorceress then. If Flynn double shots the sorceress and hits both times then we have a good chance of pulling this off as the babau will be gone and grease will get people free. Just need to keep Adular up and channeling.
IMM
is the escape-artist/CMB to get out a grappe a standard action or part of another action like a move?
Okay, got it, Rain didn't wait for the grease. I posted because I didnt want YOU waiting on me with the time diff. Didn't put 2 and 2 together when I posted late last night my time but you harping on about it now makes no sense or difference, Dhaavan.
sorry rain. im really hating this fight and am very frustrated. it feels ike there is a lack of planning strategy and cooperation. we're not a team and we need to figure out how to be.
Variel, as an AoE spell, even though it has an attack roll, it wouldn't be affected by Mirror Image. Conversely if it was able to be effected, since it targets everything within the area, then it would target all of your images simultaneously to the same effect with the difference being that you would lose all of your images. I'm more inclined to go with the former especially since it doesn't seem to be affected by sight.
Bottom line: Mirror Image stays intact but is not a factor due to Black Tentacles being an AoE spell and it also not being predicated upon sight.
(Redacted for pettyness)
Var, if you and rain have hero-points, you could et Grease you, cast enarge whille grappled, hero point for another turn, get the spell off and escape. (dunno if you have one)
or if rain has, jiro greases her, she hero-points to escape grappe and can attack.
Sorry for taking so long to post, I was in a face to face game all day and until now only had snippets of time to read/post.
No problem Seijiro.
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Rain is quitting the game for reasons I will leave it to her to go into if she wishes as I don't want to put words into her mouth nor misinterpret what she has said.
Dhaavan is very upset about this battle, again for reasons I will leave to him to go into, and is requesting to be NPC'd until the battle is over.
I have had numerous complaints about various things and want to point blank ask the group...what do you want to do? I am not very happy and have become extremely stressed relating to the game because of various things ranging from bickering and infighting to a feeling that I am letting everyone down with the game and not meeting expectations.
Here are the options as I see them:
1. We continue with the game as is with the understanding that things need to change as far as how people talk to each other, myself included. In addition, it seems that people are unsatisfied with their builds and gear. I am also concerned with the AP itself as a seagoing adventure doesn't seem to have enough direction and seems to heavily favor certain character types and playstyles over others.
2. We can scrap the group altogether, go our separate ways and thats that. This is by far my least favorite option and not one that I am seriously entertaining.
3. We start fresh with a new game, hopefully one with a much more positive tone of playing heroes straight out, and try to work together to create a group that works together by design. If we do this I can run it or someone else can try their hand at it that we all agree on. To be honest though, I'm feeling a little burnt out so if no one else wants to do it I will because I like all of you individually very much and wish to keep gaming with you.
Let me know what you all think and I am EXTREMELY open to any and all suggestions.
Gah! Bad news! Not what I would have wanted to hear.
I hate to hear that Rain is leaving as her character, her roleplaying and her presence have been such a positive part of my experience here.
I can't say that in some ways I don't agree with Dhaavan, I'm not happy with how this fight is going, I don't feel like we have much of a chance against 3 powerful demons, plus a sorceress who far out-levels us.
On a side note, as far as I can tell, she has to be at least 10th level, so she should still have at least 2 more 5th level spells remaining, which means more babaus or something worse, and some undisclosed number of black tentacles spells left, which means she can basically blanket the entire rooftop with them if she chooses and wait for the damage to take its toll. So not a pleasant set of options for us as she probably has 3-4 fireballs left as well. Seijiro of course knows none of this, but is expecting more trouble from her of course.
I agree with you that the bickering and infighting is unpleasant and I have not been enjoying it in any way and have mostly tried to stay out of it, remaining quiet when it crops up rather than contribute to it, though I am not without opinions on what is going on. I just try to rarely state them to avoid adding fuel to the fire. Which of course, isn't always a wise option either, as it lets down those whose opinion I agree with. But I have been verbally assaulted a few times when I DID state my opinion, so I have kept mostly quiet.
That said... I am not unsatisfied with either my build or my gear, having few desires or needs, probably because I rarely peruse the books looking for new toys to covet. Sure there are probably things I would want for my character to have if I knew about them, but we ARE only 6th level.
As for your options:
1. I like the idea of continuing the game, as scrapping it after putting so much time and effort into it seems depressing and sad. Despite many times being on the verge of quitting myself (and for reasons I'd rather not go into, but we have discussed them in pm, so you know what they are. If not, I'd be happy to go over it with you in pm). As I said, not upset with build or gear. The AP is a seagoing adventure, but we seem to be spending a lot of time and effort with people trying to empire build via crafting and kingmaking. This takes away a lot of the seagoing feel from the AP in my opinion and should be relegated to a few comments and DONE. Instead it seems we spend pages of time on these activities.
2. I hate this option most of all as we have all weathered a lot together and still have the potential to forge a good adventuring party.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind here... do you mean restarting the AP, or playing something completely different? I like the idea of everyone playing heroic characters that will work together rather than the disparate group we seem to have now. Is there any way we can rework some of our character personalities a little now with who we have and continue with our current AP? I don't know. Not if everyone is so invested in their backstories and 'this is my character and I'm not changing it.'
I have no qualms about making changes to Seijiro if he's being disruptive to the group somehow... just let me know and I will adjust what I need to.
I am contemplating quitting. I have given myself a day to get my head straight on this. It isn't a done deal as yet.
The thing for me? I understand people get frustrated in game (and sometimes out of game). But we are all adults and none of that stuff should come INTO the game and the way players speak to one another or characters. There has to be a separation between reality and fiction, personal and character feelings. I find/observed that this line gets crossed/blurred too often and I do not like it.
I am forthright and that may not be common knowledge to all but I am open about it to those I have talked to. I am not vindictive and I am not petty. But I will speak my mind. I do so in private messages rather than on the open gaming board (whether main or discussion boards).
I do not want pettiness to mar general fun and movement of a game. If someone's pissed off or frustrated, direct it appropriately or go find a better way of diffusing/releasing it. Common courtesy is an imperative.
I don't think the game should be scrapped. I think we are outweighed by the baddies in this current combat. Like Jiro, I don't believe our chances are good at coming out of this alive, especially Rain. If we do start a new game with "heroic" characters, I have no problem with that. I can work with others if we need to solidify the current group dynamic, personalities etc.
I'll admit, this has been a frustrating fight. I guess I don't see it so much as a lack of teamwork (Though we're certainly not Seal Team 6 here) as just a really tough fight where the enemy has every advantage (Surprise, immunity to many attacks, attacks and powers seemingly specific to taking us out, etc). I'm feeling a bit helpless on that. I've been feeling like the weak link of this group anyway, as I don't post as often, and I worry my grasp of the rules aren't as strong as that as many here which I know must aggravate folks some times (Apologies if I do that). I don't blame anyone for that, it's in the darn AP (Or so I assume) and we WERE warned this would be the toughest fight yet.
I'm not big on mechanics or min/maxing, so I've no complaints about my build, though I am a bit vexed at my choice of spells prepped some times. Sometimes it seems on any day I don't have remove disease ready, we're going to find someone infected :)(And lord, the dice certainly didn't want Jiro's dad cured). I don't have to be bad ass, but sometimes I do worry Adular isn't as useful as I'd like. However, see above about how I don't know the rules as well as others, I'm not sure I'd be that useful with any character :o However, if Adular died, well, I'd just make another character at this point rather than hope he gets resurrected.
As for the infighting, if I've taken part in this, please let me know. I've tried to play Adular as a cheery sort of fellow who tries to be on good terms with folks. He did recently get snappish when his goddess was spoken of poorly, but as far as I know, that's his only real hang up. His talk to the Captain about needing to heal him are meant as friendly jibes, but if they're not coming across that way I'll stop immediately and apologize.
In the discussion section, I DO sometimes grumble about the dice or situation. Maybe that's bringing folks down. Sorry if it is. I can try to keep my whining to myself.
Adular, your conduct in commentary/discussion has been fine, in my opinion. We all occasionally grumble about bad dice ... nothing wrong with that. ;)
The reason why I am leaning towards a game with heroic characters is that this AP is not very...heroic. I will also warn you, from everything I've read the next book is the worst of the bunch as far as what you all do. It's pretty railroady and doesn't really have consequences if you succeed or fail, you go forward regardless. I guess I am just burnt out a bit from personal stuff and also all the drama, and I am hoping for a bit of a refresh. I think the players in this group would do much better in a game that aligns more with their worldviews of heroism and goodness. I almost feel like we are trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
I think a more cohesive character group...maybe even growing up together with backstories interweaving giving you a clear and defined reason to stay together would be best. I honestly think that right now if it wasn't for the fact that you all are in a game and want to play, half of your characters would have left the ship at the first opportunity.
Rain, I sincerely hope you continue. I think that maybe a fresh start would be better but I will do whatever you all as a group think would be best.
Imm, I am open to starting afresh, especially from the sounds of the next book. But I will abide by what the group wants/needs. I'm sorry you are burnt out, too.
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Back early from the festival and wow did not expect this.
First, Rain I do not want you to quit at all as Variel and Rain have finally passed a crossways and understand each other better and where they are headed.
As for the campaign itself i will address Adular first in that I agree with you in that it seems that I have yet to pick the right combination of spells, buffs, preps etc for every single fight even when we know what we are getting ourselves into. Some of this is pure bad luck on the dice as this is the first fight that Variel hasn't been critically hit...yet. As for the bickering, I hope I am past that for the most part as I have explained my position to some via PM and will leave it at that.
I would love to see this campaign continue on goin forward as it is the most enjoyable and fastest pace AP I am a part of. As an example, I am in a kingmaker that is three years old and we just finished book 1. Boring but it does allow me to participate.
As for builds, after this fight, what are the odds of those that want to remake their characters doing so. No extras or anything just redo them wether that is changing classes, attribute point buys, skills feats etc to make people happier. Not that min/maxing is the goal but effectiveness does play a part of AP's. from one who has run Runelords I know that AP's are deadly and require a high level of play to accomplish.
For that reason Immortal I am sorry if I ask too many questions of you. Some of them are mechanical, yes like the black tentacles situation, but others are trying to figure stuff out to ensure survivability. You are doing a good job and every GM questions their effectiveness at some point.
All that being said, let continue and do what we can to work together and put aside the negatives thus far.
Hmm...
Well, I don't know about you all, I'm here to kick ass and take names.
:)
Without reading any of the posts except the last few discussion, that's all I'm able to say at this time -
But I'd like to keep going, that's for damn sure!
Now I got to go read the stuff on the boards...
I really want to see Skull and Shackles all the way through one day, but the good news is I eventually will... heck, I'm in another one right now (Though the GM is taking a twist with it). The nice thing about this site is if I'm patient, there will be a chance to apply to almost every AP there is :) So if it is easier for our burnt out GM, Rain, and others, I'm okay with a more 'heroic' AP instead. If we do start afresh, I'd like to pass on Kingmaker.. I'm in two already, and while it's fun, it's also going to encourage our nitpicking and micro- management to a degree that could drive us mad.
I'm good with all three options we have, though if we close up entirely I hope to see you guys in other games.
So, Immortal, IF we go with 'a new' AP or something, which ones do you have to run, and which one would you be willing to run?
I would pass on Kingmaker as well as I find a game that's too sandboxy is not fun in pbp... and I have been in two failed KM campaigns that died because of the overly sandbox nature of the game.
I wouldn't mind doing some PFS if everyone were up for that, and it would certainly address any inequalities as everyone would be on an even par if we started with new characters all together.
otoh, my preference would be to continue playing S&S - these are just optional ideas in case that is not the final consensus.
Variel you don't ask too many questions. My problem comes from several things. I am tired of the infighting and bickering. This next book worries me because it looks poorly made and written. Also one entire section of it is basically going to be done in large part by one or two of you which is a terrible way to do an AP. Anyway, it's these things which makes me worried because as some of you sit idle while others are doing things not only is it unfair but it is also going to engender fighting between you all.
I guess I just don't know what to do at this point because I am seeing additional problems coming.
As for which AP, I am definitely not interested in Kingmaker. I haven't really looked too closely at many of the newer ones but Wrath of the Righteous and Reign of Winter have caught my eye. Wrath of the Righteous, you can't get much more good than that. However it uses the Mythic rules which would be another set of rules to add to the game, however from everything I've read they are very well done.
Also, in the books, this sorceress your fighting against is 9th level. I kicked her up a single level and updated a few of her spells in order to keep it consistent with the challenge of a 6 person party. She also had a 12 point buy (which is just weird) that I upped to 17.
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For what it is worth Variel is willing to sit out if necessary for the time being and work on his armor that he hopes to craft. Call it a hiatus or whatever but I am willing if that is what is necessary to get through the next section.
I have heard good things about both those AP and if that is the direction we are going then so be it. I would prefer to finish this one out but understand completely. Part of that is wanting to see how Variel turns out at the end and where you are taking him on this ride through Shanxia.
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As an FYI for this combat I think the frustration is in the spell black tentacles. In the kingmaker game I am in I have a sorceress who took that spell. All it did was take one night for the DM to outlaw it. Took out a room of 10 mooks, 1 bard of equal level, a wizard two levels higher and a figure class that was supposedly 3 levels higher. Rolled a 15 on the first CMB check to get all of the them and he fighter failed to escape. 4 rounds later the mooks were almost dead and the wizard gone from 2 enervations, and the fighter unable to free himself with another 2 enervations. Final combat over without them ever getting an attack off.
I love the sound of Wrath of the Righteous, but I don't have the mythic rules and I won't likely be being them anytime soon. If folks are willing to help me on that end, I'd be cool with it.
Reign of Winter would also be cool (No pun intended).
I tried Shattered Star, but I really didn't like it from the get go. I guess I'm not a fan of the Pathfinders (ironic)
Heck, I'm almost up for anything if you want an older AP. I can play dumb if I've been through them (Probably in part. I haven't cleared one yet)
A lot depends on Immortal. If he's really burned out on the current game, then it's not fair to make him game something that's not fun for him any longer. Ditto for any of us really.
I have the mythic rules and would be willing to work with people. I only just started reading them though. I absolutely love Reign of Winter due to the fact of the fact that you go planet and plane hopping. In any event I think a lot of the drama has kind of jaded me a bit but I also think that the best times we have had in this game is when we have been doing things that were somewhat heroic. The piracy has been a bit...forced to be honest it seems like.
If we do switch I would be happy to tell you where I was going with each of your backstories.
I have electronic copies of all of the AP's so if someone was willing to run I would definitely be willing to share if they were ok with that.
If it comes down to an issue with buying an ap, I'd be glad to help out by purchasing one or two of the sections. Just let me know.
as a side note: games I've already played or don't want to play:
Rise of the RUnelords, anniversary edition
Reign of Fire
Kingmaker
I don't know (or have played) any of those campaigns (apart from Kingmaker), so I would be happy to try them out if that is the direction we go (except I too do not want to play Kingmaker).
Variel, thanks. I agree we were just making major inroads into Rain and Variel's relationship and I wanted to see where it would all lead.
I guess it really comes down to this...I really like all of you and want to keep things going fresh and strong. What I don't want is to get to the point where I'm saying f*#% it and be completely done. I think also that due to all the stresses I have going on IRL right now, I want to be involved in something with a bit higher moral compass that I can feel good about and a bit more heroic than antiheroic if that makes sense.
Perhaps Immortal and Variel could Co-Gm? One could run one book, then next book the other? Of course, each would have to have a DMPC half the time to play with either way.
Makes perfect sense to me and it sounds like you are leaning toward wanting a completely different AP. Works for me either way, though I will be sad to see Seijiro go away as I really was enjoying playing the character and wanted to see where this thing with his father was going and the tie in to Shanxia and Variel's character.
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I will leave it up to Immortal then what we do. I am willing to help out but want him to feel comfortable with whatever is decided. If that means he continues running this one but participates in another to feel refreshed I will do that. If he wants out of this one I will understand and try to fill in if that is what is needed providing I can get the AP. you guys talk it over and PM each other if needed and let me know what it is I can do to help out.
Heading to bed and good luck to everyone.
FYI for those that may wonder, I averaged a PC kill each book when I ran Runelords. Not trying to kill them but that is how the dice landed and I am a firm believer in that. One was a stupid mistake by a PC though. I can't really take credit for that.
"The rope looks frayed from long years of use"
Two PC go on at once.
"The rope creaks and small strands start to pop as you move across. I need an acrobatics check"
Third guy in full plate, "I run onto the bridge to get across while it is still up before they break it..."
" the combine weight of you all break the bridge I need a reflex save."
Third guy, "But I am only level 3 and rolled a 4. I didn't heal from the last fight and at only 10 hp."
"You fall 40ft into the water and take 12 hp. I need you to make checks to avoid drowning and stability checks." Two rounds later he drowned while the others were ok.
I guess it really comes down to this...I really like all of you and want to keep things going fresh and strong. What I don't want is to get to the point where I'm saying f~!$ it and be completely done. I think also that due to all the stresses I have going on IRL right now, I want to be involved in something with a bit higher moral compass that I can feel good about and a bit more heroic than antiheroic if that makes sense.
Given some nightmares my friends and families are currently undergoing in RL (Stuff that's destroying my faith in a lot of things), I think I can relate to your wanting 'good guys to win'. I agree with Jiro, it sounds like you're already leaning towards a different AP and if that's really what will keep you in a good place as a GM and otherwise, it's probably a good idea to go for it.
We still need to hear from Dhaavan on his take. But I think while some of us might prefer to stick with S&S, it seems like all of us are okay with a change over if that's what's best for you and others.
I think I'm done with this one for now, I'm just really tired and these last few months have been horrific for me personally. The bad reaction to the meds was that I was basically having extreme anxiety to the point of almost full blown panic attacks on a daily basis. I have since started coming off of the meds as I recognized them as the cause so the last two weeks have been much better but it took a lot out of me. That's part of why I think I want to do something more positive and heroic. I definitely wouldn't mind co-dming but not with this game I don't think. Maybe running one of Reign of Winter or Wrath of the Righteous and Variel or someone else did the other. I'd say I'd pick Skull and shackles back up again at some point in the future but I have never actually seen that happen. That said, if anyone wants to know what I was planning for the backstory stuff let me know and I will tell you.
I would like to know what you planned for the backstory stuff, please Imm.
I'd definitely like to know... please pm me and tell me what you had planned, I'd be fascinated to hear... and I have a swiss cheese memory, so if you ever did pick this up and run it from this point on, trust me, I'd probably recall little if any of what you tell me. :)
I don't really want to play another rule set, I'm comfortable with this one (i.e Pathfinder). Re-learning a new rule set seems like it's more trouble than it's worth, especially as many of the players (myself included) have constantly had to ask multiple questions of clarification on the game and rules. I don't think learning a new rule set will help things.
As for playing a new world; playing a more “heroic” game is nice, but the thing is – even a paladin can be a dick.
I think being heroic has its perks, but being a more friendly with each other, more forgiving toward each other – giving people the benefit of the doubt (especially on a play-by-post game where it’s all context) is the thing we should worry about first.
No matter what the quest or nature of the campaign is, being a team has to be paramount.
As for talking about another game, the only advantage to a boxed set is that it provides clear and defined CR - if there are deviations from the CR, that means it becomes much harder and problems ensue.
If we're playing a boxed set, and there are set CR's - including HP; Skills; Spells; Armor and gear - I say leave it the way it is. My real life is hard enough, I don't mind a challenge, but I'm not really looking to deal with something "epic" each time we fight.
To clarify: I may be in the minority, but regarding me personally - I hate "epic" fights. I mean, I really hate them. They aren't any fun for me at all. They actually ruin the game for me on a pretty basic level. I'm not here to beat an "epic fight" every time, I'm here to socially interact via writing, explore a new world and characters via a story, and overcome obstacles on the way. But that's it. I don't mind moderate challenges, but epic ones are not fun for me.
Finally - I like this game and I'd like to see it through. But I don't want to do it if we're all upset with each other and there is drama.
If making a new character in a new world is the way to go; I'll do it. But I'd rather do it in a world that uses a rule set I have a pretty good grasp on; and I have little to no interest in dealing with a world in which the challenges always seem to be "epic".
Instead, I'd rather be doing social interaction via RP with the GM instead of fighting enemies that are so challenging that I don't really have much of a desire to keep fighting.
Okay, that said - if we have to start something different, I'd really like to talk very clearly on what we can make or do in the game so things can work out in a way that makes us all happy and feel like a team :)
EDIT: I don't know what you mean by backstory for us. Are you talking about writing our backstories in a future game? I'm sorry, I just don't understand.
I'd definitely like to know... please pm me and tell me what you had planned, I'd be fascinated to hear... and I have a swiss cheese memory, so if you ever did pick this up and run it from this point on, trust me, I'd probably recall little if any of what you tell me. :)
Ditto. I'd like a PM as well if it's not a problem, and yeah, my memory won't hold :)
I don't really want to play another rule set, I'm comfortable with this one (i.e Pathfinder). Re-learning a new rule set seems like it's more trouble than it's worth, especially as many of the players (myself included) have constantly had to ask multiple questions of clarification on the game and rules. I don't think learning a new rule set will help things....
I think the plan is to play the Pathfinder RPG, and even keep it in Galorian, but just to use a different AP that's a bit more 'good guys' friendly.
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Ok so still up but how about this. We get going on a wrath of righteous campaign and if you want I can run it if I get the ap and we take a hiatus from this for 2 months. At that time we revisit and see if you want to pick this up again. If that is the case then let me know at ncvdh@sio.midco.net for collaboration. Once I hear from you I will peruse the material and hopefully get be ready to go shortly. Ideally so as to not he a long down time have people read the players handout and start discussing character concepts and team cohesion.
I am open to Wrath of the Righteous and revisiting this game in 2 months time.
I don't think anyone was proposing we use a different rule set other than Pathfinder.
THe only proposals I saw were
1. Continue with S&S
2. Quit completely
3. Try a different AP
4. PFS (my proposal, which I guess no one liked, but I happen to like the PFS rules, and I'd be willing to run some PFS for the group).
And Imm was talking about the backstories he'd embellished and written for our characters in this game. The ones that we didn't know about until they came up in the game - like the whole Shanxia thing. I am so fascinated to learn more about that aspect of the game.
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Well for you Rain, Neko was actually a 1000 year old sorcereress cursed forever into the form of a golden cat by the god Calistria for once impersonating the goddess in order to humiliate a rival. Calistria cursed her for her pride by turning her into a cat. Neko's power began to bleed out of her form however, giving her telepathy and her burgeoning powers. Her telepathy was blocked however by a mishap that occurred 100 years ago when she was attempting to reverse her form. The block would have been released upon a moment of extreme emotional upheaval, like your death or marriage or finding out that you were going to have a child or something like that.
Variel, I don't really know Wrath of the Righteous - or anything about it.
Is there any more about it that you can share at this time?
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Btw, the sorceress just ran out of fly time and crashed down on the edge of the tower. The damage dealt to her already combined with the fall was enough to knock her unconscious. The Demons disappeared and the group managed to extricate themselves from the tentacles quickly enough to make it downstairs to capture the body and stabilize her before she expired. The rest of the time was spent interrogating her while Adular kept everyone from killing her off completely.
4. PFS (my proposal, which I guess no one liked, but I happen to like the PFS rules, and I'd be willing to run some PFS for the group).And Imm was talking about the backstories he'd embellished and written for our characters in this game. The ones that we didn't know about until they came up in the game - like the whole Shanxia thing. I am so fascinated to learn more about that aspect of the game.
RE: 4 - that may be confusion on my part, then. I don't know what PFS is, I thought that was another rule set.
As for the backstories, while I'd love to know more about Horatio, I'd rather find out in game I guess.
If we ever come back to the game, I'll find out. If we don't - then that's okay, too.
Unfortunately for me I don't really like spoilers, so I guess not knowing would be better.
Nice summation/wrap up to the sorceress, Variel. I like that scenario. :)
And Imm, very cool backstory to Neko. Thank you.
Btw, the sorceress just ran out of fly time and crashed down on the edge of the tower. The damage dealt to her already combined with the fall was enough to knock her unconscious. The Demons disappeared and the group managed to extricate themselves from the tentacles quickly enough to make it downstairs to capture the body and stabilize her before she expired. The rest of the time was spent interrogating her while Adular kept everyone from killing her off completely.
Whoo Hoo!
Damn it feels good to be a gangsta! :)