Ninja and unarmed feats what is my unarmed damage

[Lobolusk]

IF i take superior unarmed strike and then 3 levels of monk and Monastid training and go unarmed combat mastery as a ninja what is my unarmed damage?

1. superior unarmed strike says I treat my monk unarmed damage level as 4 higher

2. monastic legacy says I treat my unarmed damage as half my monk level

3. ninja mastery says I treat my unarmed damage as 4 levels lower
4. Monk robe ----says 4 levels higher?

[Lobolusk]

my total level is say 14

[waiph]

Monk = 3 monk levels
Ninja = 11-4 = 7 monk levels
Superior US = 4 monk levels
Monk Robe = 4 monk levels

That's 18 monk levels

Monastic training gives half your monk levels as monk levels, but unarmed combat mastry already treats ninjs levels as monk levels -4, so i dunno about that one. It shouldn't stack with all ninja levels, (worth 11/2 = 5 monk levels). It could either do nothing except if you take non ninja or monk levels, OR it could add 2 monk levels, which is half the ninja levels that don't count as monk levels.

SUS, and Robes are jsut bonuses.

You get 10 from monk + ninja, and 8 from item and feat. so it's either 18 or 20 (cause 23 is way out of line...)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Might be worth it to go one more monk level so that the monk ki pool and the ninja ki pool combine and allow the ninja ki pool to work off wisdom rather than charisma.

[Archaeik]

Has this been discussed anywhere else? (doesn't seem like it)

RAW, the book cuts you off at 20, but a Monk3/Ninja17 seems to be able to top out at 29 (or 4d8 if you continue the regular progression)

It's probably unintentional, but it's the type of value required to make Monastic Legacy worthwhile...
Math:
Monk 3 + Robe 5 = 8(1d10/5.5 avg) + UCM 13(3 steps!) = 21 (2d10/11 avg)
+ ML (17/2)= 8(2 steps) = 29 (4d8/18 avg)
That's +5.5 for an Advanced Trick and then another +7 for a feat(and the otherwise unnecessary 3 levels of monk as (20-4)UCM +5 Robe also = 21)

Superior UAS is a 3.5 feat and would boost that another category, but I'm not so concerned about legacy feats, and the extra 4 average damage isn't very good unless you can manipulate it with Final Embrace Master or Pinning KO

[Kazaan]

Unarmed Combat Mastery says you treat your Ninja level -4 as Monk levels. In effect, this means that with a lvl 11 Ninja, you'd treat 7 of those 11 levels as Monk levels and the remaining 4 as non-Monk levels. So as Monk 3/Ninja 11 has an effective 10 Monk levels (3 actual, 7 virtual) to determine Unarmed Strike and an effective 4 non-Monk levels. So Monastic Legacy, which treats half your non-Monk levels as Monk levels, only works on those 4 virtual non-Monk levels; you don't get to double-dip the 7 levels you already converted to virtual Monk levels. So...

Ninja 11/Monk 3 w/ Unarmed Combat Master, Superior Unarmed Strike, Monk Robes, and Monastic Legacy would end up with an effective Monk level of 21 (3 actual Monk levels, 7 virtual Monk levels from UCM, 2 virtual Monk levels from ML, 4 bonus levels from SUS, 5 bonus levels from Robes) for the purposes of Unarmed Strike damage dice, an effective Monk level of 8 (3 actual Monk levels, 5 bonus levels from Robes) for the purposes of Monk AC bonus, +1 use of stunning fist from Robes, and an actual Monk level of 3 for all other Monk class abilities.

Alternatively, if you go for Monk 4 to combine ki pools...
Ninja 10/Monk 4 effective Monk levels
Unarmed Strike: 21
AC bonus: 9
Other Monk class abilities: 4
This costs you 1 tier of sneak attack dice so you'd be at 5d6 SA rather than 6d6.

[James Risner]

You can't stack Unarmed Combat Mastery and Monastic Legacy, since those Ninja levels (all of them) count as some value of monk levels so you wouldn't have any "non-monk" levels to add half to your monk levels.

SUS is a 3.5 feat, so I don't remember how it is worded or whether it matters. I'm inclined to recommend not using it.

[Kazaan]

James Risner wrote:

You can't stack Unarmed Combat Mastery and Monastic Legacy, since those Ninja levels (all of them) count as some value of monk levels so you wouldn't have any "non-monk" levels to add half to your monk levels.

SUS is a 3.5 feat, so I don't remember how it is worded or whether it matters. I'm inclined to recommend not using it.

It's Ninja Level -4 count as Monk levels so you'll still have 4 non-Monk levels with all remaining Ninja levels funneling into Monk. Still, Monastic Legacy for 2 effective Monk levels for damage dice only is probably a waste of a feat slot anyway.

[James Risner]

Kazaan wrote:

It's Ninja Level -4 count as Monk levels so you'll still have 4 non-Monk levels with all remaining Ninja levels funneling into Monk. Still, Monastic Legacy for 2 effective Monk levels for damage dice only is probably a waste of a feat slot anyway.

I disagree, since the only way you are getting the monk levels from ninja is taking the whole of them and getting -4 less. So there isn't any levels not already "monk" levels to enhance.

[Archaeik]

James Risner wrote:

You can't stack Unarmed Combat Mastery and Monastic Legacy, since those Ninja levels (all of them) count as some value of monk levels so you wouldn't have any "non-monk" levels to add half to your monk levels.

SUS is a 3.5 feat, so I don't remember how it is worded or whether it matters. I'm inclined to recommend not using it.

The ninja levels do not explicitly count as monk.

Unarmed Combat Mastery: wrote:

A ninja who selects this trick deals damage with her unarmed strikes as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4. If the ninja has levels in monk, this ability stacks with monk levels to determine how much damage she can do with her unarmed strikes. A ninja must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat before taking this trick.

If it said "treats ninja levels as monk levels", you would be correct.

UCM simply gives you an index on the monk UAS damage chart.

[James Risner]

Archaeik wrote:

The ninja levels do not explicitly count as monk.

+1 not explicitly but they do count.

But you totally sidestepped my point.

All of your ninja levels are contributing to your monk unarmed attack due to that Unarmed Combat Mastery.

When you take Monastic Legacy, every level you have is counting toward your Monk unarmed. So it doesn't see anything to half and add.

But maybe you are intentionally sidestepping. In that event, welcome to table variance. Because you will have two opposing sides to the RAW and no FAQ to clarify which side is correct.

[Archaeik]

I'll concede there is a general unwritten rule that you can't count things twice, however, I don't usually subscribe to that notion as it typically stifles inventive builds.

That said, I don't have any issue with a GM telling me he's uncomfortable with the more liberal interpretation and to tone it back.

To the point on ML, I completely disagree, it sees a whole bunch of Ninja levels to count as "other than monk".