Entry: Allip
Been having an argument with a player of mine that asserts Allip as written is not insane/mad/crazy because it does not mention any of the other effects that normally follow insanity (permanent confusion for example), but is only that way because it is Chaotic Evil and it's alignment is what makes it "insane", but no more so than any other CE PC/NPC.
I naturally disagreed because the entry even states they "suffer from the violent and incurable insanity they faced in life and take out their terror, confusion, and rage upon the living.", and chaotic evil does not mean insane but more of a "might makes right 24/7" type of evil. He calls this text fluff that doesn't mean anything, to which I have stated in the absence of a rule in the stat block it should take precedence, and while they may not be confused (as per the spell), an Allip would not by any means be something that is able to communicate or interact in a coherent manner like a sane person would.
Would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.
Been having an argument with a player of mine that asserts Allip as written is not insane/mad/crazy because it does not mention any of the other effects that normally follow insanity (permanent confusion for example), but is only that way because it is Chaotic Evil and it's alignment is what makes it "insane", but no more so than any other CE PC/NPC.
Your player has confused insanity (as mental disorder - aka mad, crazy, bonkers, nuts, etc.) with insanity spell which is very specific magical effect that represents very specific (and rather cinematic) form of insanity. Would Francis Dolarhyde have insanity in its stat block? Nope. So Allip does not require insanity in stat block to be mad.
I naturally disagreed because the entry even states they "suffer from the violent and incurable insanity they faced in life and take out their terror, confusion, and rage upon the living.", and chaotic evil does not mean insane but more of a "might makes right 24/7" type of evil. He calls this text fluff that doesn't mean anything (...)
What, whe, wha... I think I suffered 1d4 points of Intelligence damage from reading such inane statement. Description of creature does not mean anything?! It is information how the creature behaves, what it does and what it does not. Insanity from other external point of view is form of behavior atypical from the social point of view and thus description is the place to go.
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As written, allips are totally and tragically insane. Your friend is equating the mechanics related to an extremely specific kind of insanity with all forms of insanity.
To expect every being suffering some form of insanity to behave by that small set of rules, or within the confine of any set of codified rules for insanity, is severely oversimplifying and cutting short what a character and/or setting can be.
Not everything has to be codified in the rules. If it were, you'd either wind up with a unplayable mechanics or a setting that is so convoluted and unrelatable that exceedingly few people would enjoy playing in it.
That said, I wouldn't rule out communicating with an allip as a complete impossibility. But it would sure as hell be more difficult than just talking to one. MUCH more, and quite possibly dangerous to boot. Like somehow touching the creature's mind and winding up reeling from the backlash, remembering only flashes of shattered memories left in what passes for the poor soul's mind. No small task at the very least, and likely an adventure in itself.
It is fluff, and has no interaction with the rules.
I am not saying all of them are not insane, but it should not have a mechanical affect. They do have decent wisdom, and intelligence scores so I am sure they can think and plan. They can also have common and aklo as languages so they could talk if they wanted to.
That does not mean I would trust them, and how to play out their insanity with regard to relationships is up to the GM.
As a GM--If it were me I would have them behave as long as you gave them a good reason too, but the minute they felt like they did not need you, they would turn on you. Whatever happened to them in life is what would make them not worthy of being trusted long-term.
edit:I guess I just described them as insane though. So in short they don't have the game version of insanity, but they are insane.
I do agree that insane in this case means that they got twisted, and were most likely a different alignment before becoming a CE undead
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It's "just fluff" in the sense of not having game mechanics that make them roll for a random action each round, sure.
That isn't the same as meaningless. Fluff is very meaningful; it's guidance for the GM about the allip's behavior. Players who keep talking about the "if it's not crunch, it's meaningless fluff" should be smacked on the head with a rolled-up newspaper.
In the case of an allip, I'd GM the insanity by giving it combat tactics more instinctual than rational. Jumping out at people from out of walls, hounding a weak-looking character to enjoy the terror, or picking a character just because it looks like someone the allip knew in life. Don't be concerned with precise footwork and battlefield control. Ignore some danger completely but be prone to distraction and social tomfoolery as well, if someone pushes your buttons, whatever they may be.
I don't think incorporeal creatures can actually bull-rush people, but it would be very appropriate to try to drive people off heights, plummeting to their deaths. Maybe the allip tries (attacking people on the edge), but doesn't actually realize that it's too incorporeal to effectively push. If your players worry that maybe it actually can, you know you succeeded :D
It is fluff, and has no interaction with the rules.
I am not saying all of them are not insane, but it should not have a mechanical affect. They do have decent wisdom, and intelligence scores so I am sure they can think and plan. They can also have common and aklo as languages so they could talk if they wanted to.
That does not mean I would trust them, and how to play out their insanity with regard to relationships is up to the GM.
As a GM--If it were me I would have them behave as long as you gave them a good reason too, but the minute they felt like they did not need you, they would turn on you. Whatever happened to them in life is what would make them not worthy of being trusted long-term.
edit:I guess I just described them as insane though. So in short they don't have the game version of insanity, but they are insane.
Nah, they're pretty insane. They have two special abilities with 'madness' and 'insanity' in the title. You can go insane just from coming into contact with their mind.
So yes. They're nuts. However, they are disoriented, disconnected, and probably confused, so they may not be actively malicious... always. You could in fact interact with them, but they're unstable. It's not that they're going to turn on you when you're of no use (more LE) it's that they're completely random and who knows what's going to trigger something nightmarish... or how much it's already in your head.
They have good int and wisdom, so they are intelligent... but wisdom can mean either observant or rational... I don't think they're rational. I figure they're wisdom is more like OCD focus.