Reading the discussion about staff magus floating around somewhere here made me go and research staff construction rules and, while they seem mostly straightforward, I'm slightly stumped by one small thing:
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster...
and
The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th.
Does that mean that the minimal × CL value when factoring cost of a staff is × 8, or can it go lower? I.e. if there's a Staff that casts Cure Serious Wounds (as its highest level spell), is the minimal cost of that ability 3x5x400g or 3x8x400g (ignoring the discount for using multiple charges)?
Thanks for input!
~Andro
The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all spells in the staff are low-level spells.
Now I've been wrong before and will be again, but that looks pretty clear to me that by the caster level of the staff, they mean the caster level of all of its spells. So it's x8 at minimum.
Because of the way staves work there would not be any reason to not do every spell at cl 1 if possible. Because the staff uses your level anyways. So it looks like every spell has to be at least cl 8.
Staves are wonky and generally not worth making or buying, though if you find them they can be useful.
The whole thing needs to be revisited to make them worthwhile.
My 2C
Staves are wonky and generally not worth making or buying, though if you find them they can be useful.
The whole thing needs to be revisited to make them worthwhile.My 2C
I'm not saying staves don't cost too much, but they are priced reasonably compared to wands, less than 15% more and you get to use your own DCs and CL.
Scrolls, Wands, Potions, and Staves are also all priced quadratically, considering how often that word is used to describe the advantage of magic over mundane, I'm not sure that isn't appropriate.
Staves are particularly nice when dealing with spells with expensive material components.
I'm not saying staves don't cost too much, but they are priced reasonably compared to wands, less than 15% more and you get to use your own DCs and CL.
The way they price based on multiple spells is simply flawed.
Rather than the current rules they should have a number of staff 'templates' like:
1 4th level spell, 2 3rd level spells, 3 1st level spells for x gp,
1 6th level spell, 4 4th level spells for y gp, etcMaterial components should be required rather than subsumed since the staff can be recharged.
-James
That makes it a lot harder to build custom staves, but alright.
Are you saying that additional spells are too costly too add? 25%-50% off per add'l seems like a good deal to me.
There are threads upon threads of people talking about why staves aren't that great.
The cost and recharge function are why I don't like them. I like that they recharge, just not how it's done. Effectively you have to spend a spell slot per day and can only do one staff per day.
If they automatically got back one charge per day or something I'd feel a lot better about them.
Just my 2C.
There are threads upon threads of people talking about why staves aren't that great.
The cost and recharge function are why I don't like them. I like that they recharge, just not how it's done. Effectively you have to spend a spell slot per day and can only do one staff per day.
If they automatically got back one charge per day or something I'd feel a lot better about them.
Just my 2C.
Yeah, I've read many of them, I'm just not sure I agree with them.
Recharging isn't a big deal if you don't adventure more than one week out of a month, which I don't think is an unreasonable assumption.
For about the same cost as a 2/day use-activated item, you get a spell trigger item that scales with level, that can be used with about the same frequency (if you only adventure 5 days out of 15), and can also burst up to 10 charges in a single day if necessary.
Staves aren't so unreasonably priced, IMO, compared to other items.
I will admit, the staves listed in the CRB often have too many spells or the wrong spells (or both) to really be worth the price. Custom staves are where it's at.
Then kill any staff magus in the group fast, because from what i understand from a 3 page discussion, the moment a staff magus appears suddenly half the casters are no longer able to make custom staffs, while the other have to pay quadruple costs. (Reason is that staff magus could exploit custom made staffs to get a effective +5 staff for 2000-5000 GP).
I will admit, the staves listed in the CRB often have too many spells or the wrong spells (or both) to really be worth the price. Custom staves are where it's at.
Yeah, I read that thread. A lot of that junk is ridiculous.
Just because a Magus can turn a staff into a magic weapon is no reason to overcharge. Of course, if a Magus wants a 20th level staff he either has to be 20th level to make it himself, or track down a 20th level mage to make it for him. Either way is sufficient to limit the potential for abuse.
you must have loved them back in 3.X when they couldn't be recharged AT ALL save for one or two specific exceptions.There are threads upon threads of people talking about why staves aren't that great.
The cost and recharge function are why I don't like them. I like that they recharge, just not how it's done. Effectively you have to spend a spell slot per day and can only do one staff per day.
If they automatically got back one charge per day or something I'd feel a lot better about them.
Just my 2C.
They also came with 50 charges like wands, so that was easier to compare. I like rechargeable staves, too, I think it makes them more interesting than just high-level wands.
you must have loved them back in 3.X when they couldn't be recharged AT ALL save for one or two specific exceptions.There are threads upon threads of people talking about why staves aren't that great.
The cost and recharge function are why I don't like them. I like that they recharge, just not how it's done. Effectively you have to spend a spell slot per day and can only do one staff per day.
If they automatically got back one charge per day or something I'd feel a lot better about them.
Just my 2C.
We always ruled that you could recharge them using the "repair a magic item" function. Basically it cost gold and time, but hell in 3.5 they had 50 charges. That went a lot farther.
Are you saying that additional spells are too costly too add? 25%-50% off per add'l seems like a good deal to me.To me it makes them overpriced.
They go on the same pool of charges, so it's not really much of a discount rather than a price increase.
Consider a staff of two spells of equal level where one is 'discounted' 50%. You then pay 150% for 10 charges of either spell, for 1/3 more you could have 10 charges of EACH spell.
Moreover if you elect to have a lower level spell then you could easily pay the same amount OR MORE than you would be charged for an entire new staff with just that lower level spell.
Look at the prices of staves in the core rulebook and decide when a caster would reasonably afford them. Now spending 50% of your wealth on a staff is not reasonable, and even 25% of your wealth is a huge investment.
-James
I've already commented that I find the staves in the CRB to be unreasonable. In general, putting more than a few spells on a staff isn't that great because you get diminishing returns on charges, additionally, you shouldn't create spells with a large disparity in levels. Since the minimum CL is 8, you can put spells of levels 1-4 (even 5) on the same staff, but you shouldn't put a 4th lv spell with an 8th.
Sure you can buy 2 of the same level staves for twice what you would have paid for one, but you can get both spells on the same staff for only 150%. you can get three spells for only 200%. When your considering spending 10%-15% or more of you WBL on a Staff, (how much does a Fighter spend on his weapon?) that savings could be a significant chunk of change.
It does share the same pool of charges, which is bad, but that also means you can replenish a charge for both spells at once, instead of having to pick which staff you're going to recharge. It also means you can cast different spells without spending two move actions to switch, but that's often a minor convenience.
Ok, I'm starting to come around on the pricing of add'l spells.
Putting all spells of the same level works fine, but more 1 spell level disparity and your almost guaranteed to lose money. Being able to specify different CLs for different spells would help.
I really do like how simple the current formulas are, though. Maybe increase the discount for add'l spells.