The juju crew, ow dear... (musings)


Skull & Shackles


In short, a oracle with the juju mystery.
With the spirit vessel revelation, and corpse crafter feats (libris mortis)

Now, that means the jujus retain their levels and all.. except constitution... but gain strength +8 dex +2 channel resistance +8, +4 to initiative, improved initiative (yup, total +8!), toughness, FULL HP+3 +2(+3 with toughness) per hd, +5 natural armor, +10 ft/rnd speed, undead type, DR 5 (or 10)/magic and slashing (not too hard to overcome..), +d6 cold damage when hand to hand, climbing +8

oh and get the casters alignment

A true necromancers army in the making by other words, let the living serve (or why not go undead early? looks numerically like a good choise), and after death they can serve even longer as a reward for faithful service living forever and being stronger and better than they were when alive. And why not speak to the dead fallen enemies and see if they would like to live a bit longer and serve?
A true "deal you cannot say no to". Especially as you are stronger and better than you were when alive.

And while im sure the 150 dead men (and the dead mans chest) do want plunder, they probly take up less space with no need to sleep and such.. and no need for food... (or that bottle of rum). So the ship should be able to hold quite a crew of juju zombies.

Pirate hunters will not survive :p
(and may even be happy they didnt, as they too will soon be superior juju pirates or colonists of an island)


Damn id even pay some real life caster 1000 euros for that.
From merely athletic into super human strength, walking faster, never more in pain, sick or tired.. armored vs bugs or thugs and becoming more durable and gaining a lot faster reflexes too..


OGC wrote:
Using Spirit Vessel of Juju mystery..."When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD."

You would to be 25th level to control 150 undead crew of 1 HD each, right?


the idea is that control shouldnt be neccesary.
They were CN pirates, they remain CN juju pirates that still like being pirates.

Control is meant for the ones that arent willing, like say a giant squid or a cyclops artillery or two.

But generally they would be freewilled, excellent for a undead leadership feat..! Im sure they still like their share of the loot, living or dead, but i dont think undeath should mess with their minds in this case. Rest of the world might mind tho, but thats why they are pirates.. to take from those necrophobes :D


Quote:
the idea is that control shouldnt be neccesary.

yeah... no. I don't think so. This doesn't pass my smell test. Low HD undead are brainless and motivated by hunger. Without control, they would eat the rest of the crew. Here are the RAW quotes...

OGC wrote:
A zombie has no Con or Int score... A skeleton's Dexterity increases by +2. It has no Constitution or Intelligence score.

Even if the Juju-ness allows them to keep their skills and abilities, zombies and skeletons are still brainless. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to do anything without control.

cheers


jujus are different
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/human-juju-zombie

and for the actual template:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie-juju-cr- 1

and while death may be a life changing expirience, old diplomacy rules havent gone anywhere


and more on the mystery
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracl e-mysteries/juju


ooh, dr is actually better than first read, being slashibng and magic, and not slashing or magic :p

good luck for enemy marines to keep hitting much over 5 per round or having magical cutlasses. (regular buccaneer needing a 17 to hit, and even then doing on average just 5,5.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-0/human-pirate-buccaneer

them at 7hp
the juju at 15hp (assuming neg cha deducts)

Juju should probly slam.. d8 slam +d6 cold +9 (str 23 = +6 *1,5) = instakill
and need a 8 to hit

Total win for juju version of same buccaneer/pirate)
more like one equalling atleast 10 regular mortal pirates.

Scarab Sages

JujU zombies are pretty good, they make the JuJju mystery a no brainer over the Bones mystery.

They'd be plenty good enough as crew without having to beg and plead your DM to allow the Corpsecrafter chain of feats in.

I'd have to agree with you ikki, a juju zombie doesn't lose its intelligence score so there's no reason to assume that they'd not still want to act like pirates. Jubal, they wouldn't need commanding to do basic tasks because they're not mindless, they still have an Int score.


Sure, not aboslutely neccesary. But usually one just wants to do things as well as possible. :p

Which lead to the next line of thoughts, with crew and party turned undead... why not unhallow the whole ship with say FEAR affecting everyone? Especially as undeads are immune.
Then boost further by permanent symbols right there on the deck, like HARM (opposed heal), PAIN, INSANITY.. triggered every 10 minutes someone is within 60' ie aboard the ship (or even being boarded, thats close enough too).
Oh and that 7500gp permanent GUST OF WIND shouldnt hurt.

Good luck to chelish piratehunters trying to board that :p

..if thats not a floating necromancers stronghold of hell, i dont know what is.


I see now that Juju overrides the standard zombie with an Int of 8. Yes, they are ideal for a pirate crew. For only +1 to CR and no limit to creation, they seem quite powerful.

As a GM, I would say the necromancer would have to ensure that the juju zombie wanted to be undead; otherise, they would mutiny. I think the Curse of the Black Pearl reviewed some of the reasons why the undead would want to be alive...

Scarab Sages

It... doesn't overwrite the intelligence score to 8 at all. It doesn't modify intelligence in anyway. The sample jujuzombies have an intelligence of 8 presumably because the base creature does.

More than acceptable to say that the crew would need to want to be zombies, they are, afterall, intelligent and would hold positions on undeath, sailing the seas forever etc. And as evidenced they would be somewhat more difficult to coerce than a standard crew as they are so much more powerful


minoritarian wrote:
It... doesn't overwrite the intelligence score to 8 at all. It doesn't modify intelligence in anyway. The sample jujuzombies have an intelligence of 8 presumably because the base creature does.

Override or overwrite refers to the fact that the creature is called a Juju zombie. Standard zombies have a zero Intelligence score.

minoritarian wrote:
More than acceptable to say that the crew would need to want to be zombies, they are, afterall, intelligent and would hold positions on undeath, sailing the seas forever etc. And as evidenced they would be somewhat more difficult to coerce than a standard crew as they are so much more powerful

Exactly. When faced with a wrinkle of powerful game mechanics, the GM should create countervailing consequences. After all, if the game mechanics makes it possible and relatively easy to do, why wouldn't the entire population of laboring professions be converted to Juju zombies? It's not like the PCs should be the only clever, exploitative characters in the world.


Well, yeah, being drained of life, killed and than repossessing a body will most certainly not leave you a nice and peachy pirate.

- I guess it will fill you with a massive amount of hatred towards the entity responsible. And remember, you still have your full capabilities (back) to take revenge. And absoultely no reason to obey, unless he commands you, which is a save a halfway serious casting class should be able to shirk of at least 30% of the time. Which puts a fine limit on his commands, as well as a good chance of you not obeying...and be it tomorrrow, because you get a save every day. And being a "msart" zombie, you can always attempt to hit the Juju-"master" from wellout side command range... by ambush, even...

- It will fuel you with a strong hatred for the living. Hey, after all, you have just been flooded by negative energy, which is the only thing now driving you forward and animating you. The Living probably including the caster.
The core of your being,enchaining your soul to the rotting body you are trapped in... There is far more to life than being a physically fit specimen ( ask any prisoner in jail) . Like the ability to enjoy it etc... perhaps having a good drink or engage in some physical "recreation". Or being able to look into a mirror. Or feel "joy"... Apple, poppy ?

- Create Undead w. regard to Juju Zombies for the Juju Orcale requires access to "Enervation". Which thankfully enough is NOT on a Juju-Oracle spell list. There is mention of a "clarifying" sidebar in the article for the "create undead" ...which then surprisingly is missing. As I said, sloppy editing and rulescraft *congrats*

- The Juju-Oracle will also have a very hard time healing his minions (which does little to his massive up-front shock value)

- the +8 Ini is mostly based on the 19 dex of the templated undead in the Juju-Zombie entry

- All that being said, the entire Juju-Oracle process by the author rather obviously did not go through much playtesting (there may have been some intention for limiting and clarifying rules but those seem to have away over time, too).

Basically - if you see a juju filled ship, set fire to her sails, then sink her from a distance. Wonder how all the zombies will fare under 3000'+ of water pressure. Weighing them down, compressing them into tiny, well crushed lumps of angry soul in rotting flesh.

Oh, and considering pirates : most pirates inetnd to free themselbves from the shackles and obligations on land and enjoy life's pleasures. Eating, drinking wh***ing about. Lie in the sun and enjoy the pleasures. Live on a nice south Sea Island.... they do not intend to become lifeless husks of entities, filled by negative enegry so they can plunder forever but take no joy from it. Which...is basically the nice quitessence of PotC I

Scarab Sages

Where is the need for Enervation to create a juju zombie coming from by the way? I was confused by your mention of it and so looked in the Bestiary II - no mention of it there; looked in City of the Seven Spears - no mention of it there. Looked on d20pfsrd and there it was but I don't know where that comes from.


minoritarian wrote:
Where is the need for Enervation to create a juju zombie coming from by the way? I was confused by your mention of it and so looked in the Bestiary II - no mention of it there; looked in City of the Seven Spears - no mention of it there. Looked on d20pfsrd and there it was but I don't know where that comes from.

Juju Zombies in DnD used to be created by draining (classed) humanoids of their life energy. (at least since AD&D -), so continuity in Pathfinder appears highly logical. This could not be done by undead, since those automatically turned the victims into their own types. Think they originally popped up in some FR supplement in the early 90ies but... a bit hazy there.

the requirement is anchored in the "Create undead" spell :
create undead

Also used to be a big problem with judging "how many Enervations on you, BBEG" for debuffing casters back in 3.5 days.. Too many, you got yourself a Juju zombie.


Just a note, their alignment will probably be NE regardless of your alignment.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, I saw it on d20pfsrd I'm just not sure where any of the additional requirements are coming from is all. my copy of the CRB (and the paizo srd) doesn't contain any additional requirements for any undead and as juju zombies weren't released then they wouldn't have been there either. I would genuinely like to know where in the rulebooks d20pfsrd are getting the additional requirements of either enervation or energy drain as I can't see that referenced anywhere that juju zombies are in pathfinder.

D20pfsrd are presenting it as if it is a rule when I can't see any basis for that. I would honestly, really like to know where it comes from because I feel I'm missing something.

The rules don't support juju zombies 'probably be[ing] NE, rgardless of your alignment' either, Cheapy, unless you create them as a cleric/wizard/non-juju mystery oracle etc.

Scarab Sages

Is it in undead revisited?


minoritarian wrote:
Is it in undead revisited?

Ruleswise, in Pathfinder, yes on page 3 of Undead Revisited. Table listing necessary spells' and possible required physical components for types of undead.


But then as juju is the only undead the juju oracle can make with that spell, its a bit odd if they werent able to do it. Especially as they get the spell early. Smells to me its not a create undead spell, but a create juju spell.


ikki3520 wrote:
But then as juju is the only undead the juju oracle can make with that spell, its a bit odd if they werent able to do it. Especially as they get the spell early. Smells to me its not a create undead spell, but a create juju spell.

As stated in the original article in AP-39(?), there should be a sidebar explaining the mehcanics of it. Which... is missing. In the absence of a specialised ruling, the general ruling of "need Enervation to create juju zombies" stands..... As written. Houserule differently, if you like...

Nevermind that the whole article is odd in its direction and intent to begin with - a non-evil undead creating class ? With an even stronger than usual ability to control vastly overpowered physical undead it can create on its own ? With loa, ahem "wendo" spirits to possess bodies in a way reproducing a totally different monstrous template, one normally based on Enervation and Energy Drain extinguising the living spark, not spiritual possession ? Lazy.

And please......take a good look at the special abilities gained by the juju-zombies and do a quick recalculation of their powers (undead resistances and immunities, immunity (!)to two elements, resistance 10 to a third, immune to magic missiles, channeling resistance, hefty bonus to Str and Dex, +3 bonus to natural armour, physical damage resistance, two bonus Feats..... for a flat+1 to CR )... say by the rules of the ARG.
Just a +1 increase to CR ? I have my doubts

Look at "giant" (CR+1) : +4 to Str and Con, increased size, same amount of natural armour, penalty to Dex, easier to hit... BUT no immunities, invulnerabilites (like min affecting), turn resistance (or similar), no Bonus Feats... same degree of power ?
Juju-template = IMHO - a very bad call. Besides all the physical advantages, they become nigh impossible to fight for low-level casters, while retaining their full set of abilities, boosted up.

Seems like a wet-dream, but a pretty unbalanced one. Which players find very funny unless the GM pulls them out of the bag for full effect, usually ending in great lamentations of that being "unfair". But do you really believe a PC is the first entity to think of exploiting it ?

The ability of the Juju Oracle to cast Dominate Person and Charm Monster is powerful enough.. and should be explanation enough for "the 'dead'' casters follow and obey the juju-shaman"

Scarab Sages

Was there ever any errata/web-update to City of Seven Spears?


minoritarian wrote:
Was there ever any errata/web-update to City of Seven Spears?

Not to my knowledge

Scarab Sages

That's a shame. (I agree that juju zombies are stupidly powerful by the way. I'd allow a pc to animate one in my game but just that - one. And then for a specific purpose after which the spirit leaves)


The example Juju zombies are neutral evil. Hence why they'd probably be NE. Could be lawful evil, could be chaotic evil. Probably best to just remove the Good / Neutral from the alignment, and replace it with Evil, I suppose.


Paizo rarely reprints AP books or non-hardcovers for that matter. That doesn't change the intent though. It's the same issue as the Paladin of Asmodeous.


Ah. I found a post where a Creative Director said this Juju stuff is a mistake.

cheers


well thats with the whole undead type = evil idea. Doesent even include negative energy as such, but specifically wendigos and having corpses act as spirit vessels (as per ability name).

Too many immunities granted to undead to allow the type to players/friendlies?

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