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I was looking at trying to build a real bestial/feral barbarian PC and noticed if I went half-orc with the Toothy alt trait Lesser Beast totem I would have three natural attacks. If I dipped two levels into Ranger and took Natural Weapon Combat style with Aspect of the Beast I could then have one bite attack and four claw attacks at 4th level. So would this require me to have four arms, or could one pair of claws be on my feet, as is allowed for eidolons?
I'm unaware of any rule governing what limbs gain claws or claw attacks. Sorry. You might try again in the Advice forum. Or is this for PFS?
I don't think there is anything stating claws must be on your hands, so I guess it would be possible. If it's a home game you can ask your gm about it. But it sounds rather overpowered, do you even need 5 attacks a round at lv4? If you need 4 arms, how do you plan on getting the other 2? The alchemists vestigial arm discovery won't work because it specifically says the arms do not grant you any extra attacks.
If I can put them on my feet I don't need extra limbs, which is why I was asking.
Don't claws on feet normally count as a rake attack rather than as claws, or is that only with (the back feet of) quadrupeds?
I think the RAI is usually for claws to be on the hands, makes the most sense since they are primary attacks.
There is no rule that says so, but it is mostly an understood thing. If you look at the official monsters the bipeds have claws on their arms, and the quadrapeds have them on their feet.
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I don't think there is anything stating claws must be on your hands, so I guess it would be possible. If it's a home game you can ask your gm about it. But it sounds rather overpowered, do you even need 5 attacks a round at lv4? If you need 4 arms, how do you plan on getting the other 2? The alchemists vestigial arm discovery won't work because it specifically says the arms do not grant you any extra attacks.
Actually, vestiagl arms could work. The arms themself don't grant any extra attacks, but you can still hold a sword in them to attack with it.
But if you add claws to them, they legally should add the natural attacks, because it's the claws that add the attack, not the arms.
Other than that, I don't think you need them to be on hands only. The flying raptor-birdpeople-something race from 3.5 had claws on their feet and could become very good fighters with them. They had no rake, so feet + claws doesn't force you into rake. I think Rake is more like a maneuver, which you can gain trough feats for one.
I don't think there is anything stating claws must be on your hands, so I guess it would be possible. If it's a home game you can ask your gm about it. But it sounds rather overpowered, do you even need 5 attacks a round at lv4? If you need 4 arms, how do you plan on getting the other 2? The alchemists vestigial arm discovery won't work because it specifically says the arms do not grant you any extra attacks.Actually, vestiagl arms could work. The arms themself don't grant any extra attacks, but you can still hold a sword in them to attack with it.
But if you add claws to them, they legally should add the natural attacks, because it's the claws that add the attack, not the arms.
Yes, the arms can hold a weapon and attack with it. But it will not give you any extra attacks.
And where are you adding the claws? Vestigial arms, which specifically says they don't grant any extra attacks. You can ask your GM about it, but RAW it won't work.
The arms don't give the attacks. I said that. The claws from the ranger/feral barbarian do.
Since you'd have two pairs or arms, the 2nd pair could be applied to the vestigal arms. There's no rules against that.
Actually, vestigal arms could work. The arms themself don't grant any extra attacks, but you can still hold a sword in them to attack with it.
But if you add claws to them, they legally should add the natural attacks, because it's the claws that add the attack, not the arms.
I'm having trouble following your line of thought... Are you saying that it's not the vestigal arms that grant you extra attacks, it's the claws on the vestigal arms that do?
I'm having trouble following your line of thought... Are you saying that it's not the vestigal arms that grant you extra attacks, it's the claws on the vestigal arms that do?Actually, vestigal arms could work. The arms themself don't grant any extra attacks, but you can still hold a sword in them to attack with it.
But if you add claws to them, they legally should add the natural attacks, because it's the claws that add the attack, not the arms.
My wording is terrible today, it's been a long day. I suppose what I meant to say, from how I read it, and not necessarly the right way is that the vestigal arms act as normal appendages, and therefor don't give extra attacks or actions, just like a normally four armed creature with no natural attacks wouldn't get those benefits.
Now, natural weapons and TWF follow a different ruling, allowing a four armed character to attack with amount of natural weapons or extra offhand attacks. Just like gaining two tentacles(natural weapons) gives you two extra attacks, either primary or secondary.
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I'm having trouble following your line of thought... Are you saying that it's not the vestigal arms that grant you extra attacks, it's the claws on the vestigal arms that do?Actually, vestigal arms could work. The arms themself don't grant any extra attacks, but you can still hold a sword in them to attack with it.
But if you add claws to them, they legally should add the natural attacks, because it's the claws that add the attack, not the arms.
Well. My feet don't give me extra attacks, till I either get them prehensile or clawed, then I can use them for either off-hand attacks, or natural attacks. Since you effectively can dual wield two greatswords(even if it wasn't intended) with vestigal arms, just like that four armed insect race in 3.5.
That's anyhow one way to read it. The arms don't give extra attacks, but are otherwise used exactly as normal limbs, such as to make off-hand attacks, and most likely unarmed strikes, why not natural attacks?
You can dual wield 2 great swords yes, but you would take the normal two weapon fighting penalties.
The arms can make off hand attacks and unarmed strikes yes, but those are done as part of two weapon fighting and/or iterative attacks. Natural attacks don't use two weapon fighting or iterative attacks. If you want 5 natural attacks a round why don't you just play a synth summoner? Least that way you won't have any arguments about if it's legal or not.
The only difference between a synthesist adding claws to his limbs and an alchemist is "but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam)", and I don't think synthesists are unique in adding natural attacks to limbs.
My offhand doesn't give me extra actions or attacks, but I gain two attacks if I make them clawed. I don't see the difference between clawing my right hand, my left foot or my vestigal arm.
If you were to just have 2 claw attacks I wouldn't care what limbs they are on. But assuming it's all fine and dandy, why do you even need 5 attack a round in the first place? That doesn't strike you as overpowered at all?
Oh, overpowering, maybe, but then again, we have different playstyles, and I find a well build 2-handed Power Attacking character overpowering. Natural Weapons compared to other fighting styles, in my opinion, is harder to pay feat and item-wise than say, Archery, TWF, Unarmed or Two-Handed.
But, I'm getting off-track, what I really wanted to say is that I/we might not like the idea, but that's when you skip a thread and don't reply.
I came in to reply with what I knew, like it or not.
Wouldn't claws on the feet cause damage to any floor you are on when fighting. Also you would be easy to track and know it is you with claws on your feet.
As to damage doubful at least no more than anything else accidently damages things.
Tracking could definatly be easier as would recognizing you in disguies.
Fluffwise knowing it's might be him yeah, if the claws are always out and not only when he's using rage, mutagen, or whatever the source of claws it.
It wouldn't actually be easier to track him, it really depends if the claws are more like a raptor or a bird, or more like Sabertooth, who has them hard and sharp but not always curved.
Let me rephrase it would be easier to pick out his tracks than someone elses. And yes that would be dependant on if they are always out.
Though magic boots resize to the owner's size and feet type, so it's well possible that wouldn't happen really. Thought I suppose that really is just fluff and would change from game to game depending on the different playstyles.
The problem is the only reason to have the claws on the feet is to game the system. If you could attack with a sword and claw with your hands no one would ever ask to have claws on the feet. It really doesn't suit many themes and on humanoids is fairly impractical.
But that said there are no rules against it and the synthesis specifically allows it. ( otherwise quadrupeds couldn't have claws on their front feet)
No it's not. Even with a single pair of claws, it'd be pretty cool to have them on the feet, for example for my Strix Alchemist who uses blade sharp wide kicks rather than his hands(those are busy bombing fleshy things).
Clawed feet aren't much different from a fancy kicking monk.
You should play the fighting game Bloody Roar, and check out a few of the moves for clawed humanoids there, it's a pretty cool visual source for these things, now that it's so much easier to gain natural attacks than in 3.5.
Maybe I should rephrase. There are times when it could be thematically appropriate ( such as the raptor synthesis above) but given the question basically comes up so much for power gamin reasons I guess I have a negative view.
For some reason I have this image of a human doing weird hopping motions in my head in order to claw with the feat.
I really don't have an issue with it as there are no rules against it so long as there's a thematic reason for it and not just to get around the natural attacks and manufactured weapon rules.
I agree flying bird guys clawing with their feet would be kind of neat.
My original reason is thematic with my intent to play a half Orc feral/bestial barbarian. My intent is not for mixing mfr weapons and natural weapons, it's more that i am trying to build a barbarian that fights more like an uncontrolled wild animal. I think half-orc or maybe catfolk from ARG would be great for that kind of a character.
I didn't think putting claws on the feet would be overpowered. As Ramza pointed out I was thinking of it like a monk attacking with both hands and feet.
My original reason is thematic with my intent to play a half Orc feral/bestial barbarian. My intent is not for mixing mfr weapons and natural weapons, it's more trying to build a barbarian that fights more like an unconteolled wild animal. I think half-orc or maybe cat folk from ARG would be great for that kind of a character.
I didn't think putting claws on the feet would be overpowered. As Ramza pointed out I was thinking of it like a monk attacking with both hands and feet.
Ok, assuming you're not just trying to game the system to gain more power. Couldn't you just go with the same theme/concept but with 2 claws instead of 4? If you want claws on your feet just for the sake of appearances, then I don't see a problem putting them on your feet instead of your hands. And a monk's unarmed strikes still follow normal iterative rules, unlike natural attacks which follow their own set of rules.
Ok, assuming you're not just trying to game the system to gain more power. Couldn't you just go with the same theme/concept but with 2 claws instead of 4? If you want claws on your feet just for the sake of appearances, then I don't see a problem putting them on your feet instead of your hands. And a monk's unarmed strikes still follow normal iterative rules, unlike natural attacks which follow their own set of rules.My original reason is thematic with my intent to play a half Orc feral/bestial barbarian. My intent is not for mixing mfr weapons and natural weapons, it's more trying to build a barbarian that fights more like an unconteolled wild animal. I think half-orc or maybe cat folk from ARG would be great for that kind of a character.
I didn't think putting claws on the feet would be overpowered. As Ramza pointed out I was thinking of it like a monk attacking with both hands and feet.
No offense, but you now remind me of a typical Eve Online player. I ask for a way to make ship A work okay. You tell me to use ship B because it's better.
Again, sorry, but op asked for help with four claws, and it's not really for us to tell him if it's good or bad, but to either walk by and ignore him, or help with his question.
@Op
I the Cat Race is a good pick, with it's two default class, you could focus just into barbarian to gain the feet claws, becoming more feral as you rage. If you don't mind lower BAB, alchemist is pretty epic, as his Feral Mutagen will give two claws and a bite, along with armor and stat boost that last 10 min per char level and has no daily limit. So both picks are good, and you don't have to multiclass.
A variant Tiefling can swap out his Darkness spell for two claw attacks as well if you're not into kittens.
I'm not very familiar with the alchemist so I didn't know about that option, I'll have to look into it as well as the Tiefling. Thx for the help.
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I took the foot claws for appearance not power, i do not mix weapon attacks with natural it is one or the other. I debate when i can legally do 4 attacks clawing the hands as well. the character is already an acrobatic fighter so getting all limbs into the fray is not out of the question. With an acrobatics mod of +15 im sure he knows how to move around a bit