Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Ugh nothing happens ;)
As an example bites and claws are in the same weapon group.
If you take weapon focus(claw) you can also apply the feat to your bite attacks.
edit:You can apply the benefits of that feat to bite. The same thing would apply to weapon specialisation or improved critical.
That is how I read it also.
so
you take weapon focus claws then feral combat training claws
then you take martial versatility to grant your unarmed strike weapon focus
when you could just take weapon focus unarmed strike ?
What feat are you looking to transfer between a natural weapon and unarmed strike because its only 1 for 1, you don't get all the feats that apply to one natural weapons to transfer to your unarmed stike
Well, this seems the only way for an unarmed strike to benefit from improved natural attack.
This is because it seems to allow feats that would normally only effect a natural attack, to effect unarmed strikes.
The devs have specifically said INA does not affect IUS though. I am sure this was not meant as a loophole, but you can argue a rules contradiction. It is then up to the GM, but in that case he should just allow it anyway, without making you pay a tax feat. That is how I would do it.
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Just so everyone is on board, here are the feats:
Feral Combat Training (Combat)You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Martial Versatility (Combat, Human)You broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 4th, human.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.
even though the improved unarmed feat calls out that it can't be used on unarmed strikes, so your trying to bypass the clear intent ?
btw you'd only need weapon focus claws and INA claws and then martial versatility to do this, you don't need feral combat training
So, for example, Rending Claws would trigger with any combination of unarmed strikes or natural attacks.
what would the benefit of that be ?
you don't get extra attacks using NA with flurry
What is martial mastery?
It is the combo that does more.
It seems to bypass the need for Martial Mastery.
you think the combo (weapon focus claw + feral combat training + improved natural attack claw + feral combat training) gives you the same benefit as Martial Mastery ?
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For this particular weapon group? Yes, it seems so.
Here is the Martial Mastery feat I mentioned:
Martial Mastery (Combat, Human)You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Martial Versatility, fighter level 16th, human.
Benefit: Each combat feat you have that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
So you want to have a human with adopted take the toothy trait, then become brawler fighter 4 martial artist monk 16 with martial versatility, improved natural attack (bite), putting it on unarmed strike? Amusing.
For this particular weapon group? Yes, it seems so.
Here is the Martial Mastery feat I mentioned:
Martial Mastery (Combat, Human)You further broaden your study of weapons to encompass multiple similar weapons.
Prerequisites: Martial Versatility, fighter level 16th, human.
Benefit: Each combat feat you have that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
what particular sentence or sentences leads you to believe that combining those 4 feats gives you the above benefit?
He's saying if you have weapon focus unarmed, and have a bite, two claws and a tentacle, with feral combat training it is the same as Martial Mastery (Natural)
Not really.
Martial Versatility is still required to be taken once for each feat you want it to apply to.
In short taking it for weapon focus won't mean that weapon specicialtion applies to every weapon in that group.
Martial Mastery only needs to be taken once to apply all the combat feats to one group.
He's saying if you have weapon focus unarmed, and have a bite, two claws and a tentacle, with feral combat training it is the same as Martial Mastery (Natural)
except feral combat training only applies to one natural attack and only for feats with improved unarmed strike as a pre-req
and martial versatility only applies one feat to one weapon ....
Sorry I'm not seeing it
this is the part from feral combat he is after
"as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
Ok, I see what you mean, but if they meant for any feat with unarmed strike as target to count then why not say so plainly.
I think the only feats that were intended to cross over were ones with unarmed strike as a prerequisite as those are explicitly called out. I would most likely allow it, but that particular verbage is worth an FAQ.
Speaking of which I have a post to make later on.
I think you are correct, BBT. But ...so what?
What I mean to say is that you can take those feats to apply to your Unarmed Strikes anyway. And when you use Feral Combat Training to attack with your natural attacks those feats apply to attacks made with your natural attacks anyway. So... I guess I'm not seeing the advantage that your revelation gives.
...I think I am clearly missing something here.
Why not just take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)?
I think I am confused here.
I am saying you can do this
Martial Versatility(weapon focus) and then take Martial Versatility(weapon spec).
That should work. Since Martial Versatility specifically says "Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat." You have to take it more than once.
How so?
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Well, now with Martial Versatility(weapon focus), the benefit ends there.
With Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training), the weapon focus will apply to the whole weapon group, and any other feat or effect that applies to unarmed strikes or natural attack, without the need to take Martial Versatility again..
I am not seeing the connection.
All FCT does is apply feats with IUS as a prereq to natural attacks, so Martial Versatility(weapon focus), should not really do anything.
Martial Versatility(weapon focus) by RAW only applies feats with IUS as a prereq, and effects that enhance IUS to natural attacks. A feat is not an effect.
I am not talking about Martial Versatility(Weapon Focus),
I am talking about Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training).
I know that. I am not seeing how that helps you bypass Martial Mastery.
edit:I see I copied and pasted the wrong things. I meant to paste Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training)
Feats can create effects that augment unarmed strikes.
The FCT feat specially calls out feats with IUS as a prereq, and effects that enhance unarmed strike seperately. If FCT was meant to use all feat that affected IUS in any way what so ever then it would have been written that way. With that being the case feats are not to be treated as effects since they are not effects.
In short if the feat does not work for FCT then it does not do anything with martial versatility. If the feat in question does work with FCT then martial versatility is not needed anyway because the feat is already in effect.
I see it now. Good point.
I agree that Martial Versatility is not all that good. It would be better if it allows you to choose two weapons, and whatever you chose for one applied to the other. That would make TWF'ing better.
My DM made a feat very similar to what you speak of.
I am thinking of converting this one.
I still don't see why it matters. If you take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) and you have Feral Combat Training then you should be set for both your claw attacks and Unarmed Strikes. Right?
Whats do you gain by using Martial Versatility? I mean other than having it be able to apply to a bite attack as well?... or some other kind of natural attack.
Or is that what you meant?
Is this for a Synthesist Monk or something?
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Okay, let's say you have Feral Combat Training(Claw).
You take Martial Versatility(Feral Combat Training).
Now, the Weapon Focus(Claw) you took to get Feral Combat Training applies to all natural weapons and unarmed strikes.
If later you take Weapon Specialization(Claw), it will apply to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Dragon Style, to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Greater Weapon Focus, to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Greater Weapon Specialization, to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Improved Critical, to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
Penetrating Strike, to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
There are many more.
Don't they already with Feral Combat Training? Well, that is all unarmed strikes and 1 natural attack.
As far as I can tell the only thing your gaining is to have it apply to all natural attacks rather than the one. I suppose that is a decent gain when you get all the feats you mentioned. Especially if you have multiple different natural attacks... like if you are a synthesist summoner or something.
Now go make something with it and show us what it can do! :)
It would work well for a dragon with class levels. :)
Mm. Very true.
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Good idea, but I think by saying that you can apply Rending Claws and INA to unarmed strikes, you're assuming that natural attacks and unarmed strikes are totally equivalent for purposes of this combo. I do not think that is the case.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
The effect of Martial Versatility (FCT) is: for purposes of FCT, replace "selected natural weapon" with "any/all natural weapons, including unarmed strike."
That means that the benefit of Martial Versatility(FCT) is, RAW:
While using any natural weapon, including unarmed strike, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
That is, natural weapons (including unarmed strikes) count as unarmed strikes. That is not the same thing as "natural weapons count as unarmed strikes and vice-versa."
This distinction, enforced strictly, means that the combo allows you to apply any Generic Weapon Improvement Feat(unarmed) to all your natural weapons, but would not allow you to apply GWIF (claw) to your unarmed strike (or any other natural weapon), because GWIF (claw) does not improve an unarmed strike. It also means that it cannot be used to apply INA to unarmed, because unarmed still does not count as a natural weapon even with this feat combo. Finally, Rending Claws cannot be applied to other natural weapons using the combo, because its effect cannot be applied to unarmed strikes and therefore cannot be applied to all natural attacks through the FCT.
If you see something in the feat descriptions that would make natural attacks and unarmed strikes properly equivalent in both directions, please point it out.