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First of all, I believe this quote by Doom, spoken to The Thing, sums up this battle quite nicely:
“I am no longer amused by your amateurish display of mediocrity"
Except replace Thing with Bats...
Don't get me wrong, I love Batman, he is a favorite of mine. However, take out the writers Mary Suing him, the fact that he's a hero and Doom is a villain, and other such things, and make this an actual fight based on pure ability alone and Doom wins, no contest, hands down, doesn't even break half a sweat.
Read Books of Doom. Holy Crap. Victor is scary badass and I actually think he out willpowers Bruce. Doom is the second most powerful sorcerer in Marvel U, next to the Sorcerer Supreme. If the SS was a 30 level Sorc, Doom is like 28th, or maybe 26th.
He's mastered time travel. That alone is a win. No Batman will not be there in the past if Doom decides to prevent Bruce from becoming the Dark Knight. That's fan boy masturbation, plain and simple. Go j#!z elsewhere please.
For every plan Bruce comes up with, Doom has 10 to counter them.
Doom has tech that Bruce wishes he could come up with. His force field alone is enough to tire out Bats. Yes, he would get tired after beating up on it for several hours. He is human, no matter how much some may wish or write him otherwise and humans tire.
Worst comes to worst, Doom destroys Gotham, killing Bruce in the process, then hides behind Diplomatic Immunity.
First of all, I believe this quote by Doom, spoken to The Thing, sums up this battle quite nicely:
“I am no longer amused by your amateurish display of mediocrity"
Except replace Thing with Bats...
Here's what Doom is really doing when he says crap like that:
he's creating psychic dissonance within hisself, convincing himself that everyone is inferior to him, therefore when they actually DO beat him, which they ALL do, he's a worthless piece of crap.
So after that inevitable defeat, he can sit on his throne and sulk, instead of finding some Marvel Universe mutant who can do plastic surgery with his/her hands and getting over Reed Richards and getting on with his f&~$ing life.
He's just lucky that Batman is all nice now and won't shoot him in the face with a .45 automatic like he did back in the 50's.
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First of all, I believe this quote by Doom, spoken to The Thing, sums up this battle quite nicely:
“I am no longer amused by your amateurish display of mediocrity"
Except replace Thing with Bats...
Here's what Doom is really doing when he says crap like that:
he's creating psychic dissonance within hisself, convincing himself that everyone is inferior to him, therefore when they actually DO beat him, which they ALL do, he's a worthless piece of crap.
So after that inevitable defeat, he can sit on his throne and sulk, instead of finding some Marvel Universe mutant who can do plastic surgery with his/her hands and getting over Reed Richards and getting on with his f#@&ing life.
He's just lucky that Batman is all nice now and won't shoot him in the face with a .45 automatic like he did back in the 50's.
Or you know, Doom is the villain and looses cuz that's what bad guys do in heroic comic books. Seriously, even when the evil guys temp "win" like in Dark Reign, it eventually ends up with the heroes coming out on top in the end.
Now then, come back to me from far away fanboy land with you epeen ducked back in and talk to me rationally.
This isn't Good Guy vs Bad Guy, thus Good Guy wins, cuz that's how Waid, or Bendis, or Millar, or any other writer pens the tale.
Explain to me, without using Mary Sues, writer bias, or any similar nonsense how Batman wins.
Saying "well he's the g~%&@$n Batman and always wins" is an utterly invalid argument.
The Sabreman had a good point - Batman's only real advantage is that Doom's ego prompts him to underestimate his opponents on a regular basis. On the other side of that equation: one of Batman's greatest advantages is his ability to play into his opponents' tendencies to underestimate him because he is "just a man."
That said, it's not a mistake that Victor would make more than once. It's entirely likely, however, that Batman would be able to infiltrate Doom's organization. That could be another advantage for Batman - Bruce is a master of disguise and if "Batman" never enters into the scenario and it's Bruce that takes on Doom... well. It's not likely to work, but it's more likely than Batman simply out-fighting or out-masterminding Doom.
The funny thing is that Richards always seems to beat Doom... and for some reason I can't really see Richards beating Wayne. He's smarter AND his gear is better, he's just not... savvy. He isn't cunning like Wayne is, and he's too academic and predictable. It's like a rock-paper-scissors triangle. Doom > Batman > Fantastic > Doom > Batman > Fantastic...
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
Not to get fully off topic in the off topic discussions(why isn't this in comics again? Lol) but I think one thing you're forgetting about with Reed:
If his family was in danger, the man will do pretty much anything to save them. Even if that means inventing something that's never even been thought of before.
Now granted, its not likely to happen Bats V Reed, unless for some reason, mayhap via outside forces(Doom?) that becomes their reason to fight.
Reed is one of the 8 smartest people on Earth. But he's still not the Scientist Supreme. :)
==
As for intellect, Doom is #2 in most categories in the Marvel universe. Richards is smarter then him, because Reed can be the smartest person in the whole Marvel universe. That whole stretching the brain thing.==Aelryinth
Scientist Supreme was sooo awesome n badass!! Shame that kinda fizzled out.
Reed IS the smartest person on Marvel Earth. Heck, he might be one of the most intelligent beings in the universe. Henry Pym is widely considered the foremost geneticist on Eath, and Reed commented, "Why, it would take me at least a full day of devoted study to equal your knowledge of genetics."
He's THAT smart in the science arena. Tactically, you'd have to give the nod to Captain America, who I've always wondered what kind of chess ranking he would have...and TOny Stark can beat Reed at chess. Presumably, so could the Panther.
Doom is NOT a powerful sorceror. He's actually fairly mediocre in every circumstance he's had to directly cast. What he's good at is long rituals, ceremonies, and stuff that takes precision and time...because he can do a lot of that stuff with mechanical precision. Most of the 'powerful' stuff he's done has actually been bargains and compacts with other beings.
Books of Doom totally overplayed what Doom is capable of. He has NEVER been an awesome physical combatant in person...that's what his armor is for. Him killing a lion with his bare hands is completely outside the paradigm of every other Doom tale ever told. So, Grain of Salt there. However, it also put up the fact that once Doom stops trying to conquer the world and starts trying to act heroic, he can become a force of nature.
And Batman going up against Doom, Bats would prepare. He'd short the force field, neutralize the armor and tech toys, and it'd be mano a mano, and Doom would lose that fight.
Just note that 'winning' is highly relative. Depending on the writer's incarnation, if Doom wants to win, he could nuke Gotham...nobody could stop him. He'd just teleport the bomb in and boom.
==Aelryinth
Reed IS the smartest person on Marvel Earth. Heck, he might be one of the most intelligent beings in the universe. Henry Pym is widely considered the foremost geneticist on Eath, and Reed commented, "Why, it would take me at least a full day of devoted study to equal your knowledge of genetics."
He's THAT smart in the science arena. Tactically, you'd have to give the nod to Captain America, who I've always wondered what kind of chess ranking he would have...and TOny Stark can beat Reed at chess. Presumably, so could the Panther.
Doom is NOT a powerful sorceror. He's actually fairly mediocre in every circumstance he's had to directly cast. What he's good at is long rituals, ceremonies, and stuff that takes precision and time...because he can do a lot of that stuff with mechanical precision. Most of the 'powerful' stuff he's done has actually been bargains and compacts with other beings.
Books of Doom totally overplayed what Doom is capable of. He has NEVER been an awesome physical combatant in person...that's what his armor is for. Him killing a lion with his bare hands is completely outside the paradigm of every other Doom tale ever told. So, Grain of Salt there. However, it also put up the fact that once Doom stops trying to conquer the world and starts trying to act heroic, he can become a force of nature.
And Batman going up against Doom, Bats would prepare. He'd short the force field, neutralize the armor and tech toys, and it'd be mano a mano, and Doom would lose that fight.
Just note that 'winning' is highly relative. Depending on the writer's incarnation, if Doom wants to win, he could nuke Gotham...nobody could stop him. He'd just teleport the bomb in and boom.
==Aelryinth
If you give Batman time to prepare, you have to give Doom an equal amount of time to do so as well. Otherwise it wouldn't be a fair fight and instead would be only dependent on one factor to Batman's advantage, a factor that's equally beneficial for both (perhaps even more so for Doom than for Bruce).
Character X vs Character Y discussions must be handled so that both characters are in the same conditions, such as "neither are given time to prepare more than 10 mins, neither can have their armor and gadgets on" and so on, because claiming Batman could beat Superman IF he had his kryptonite shard is like saying "sure, Batman could win, if he cheats" but if they went head to head with no gadgets or preparation time of any sort, Superman would rip Batman in half.
You could say it's because Batman is only his gadgets, his intelligence and some martial arts. There are people dedicated to the same fields (like Doom is, though he is more science than melee) who could beat Batman. Hell, Deathstroke (tactical genius and martial artist like Batman) has always beaten him in a fair 1 vs 1 fight, and let's not forget the scenario when Bane literally broke the bat once. These facts alone made the whole "he survived Darkseid's blast" thing all the more ridiculous*. Lastly, let us assume the "Doom killed a lion with his bare hands" scenario is canon (unless proven otherwise), and thus must be taken into account in this discussion.
* = You complained that Doom was overplayed? That whole issue is Batman being overplayed, put up to eleven and beyond.
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Batman beats up on Doom's armor for awhile, eventually breaking his hands and feet.
The armor can withstand blasts from Iron Man, it can handle hits from a non super strong human just fine.
Also, while Batman can maybe find a way to short out Doom's armor, which I doubt btw as if that was so easy Reed would do it all the time, he has no counter to Doom's mystic shields. Remember, no allies as stated by the OP, hence no mystic buddies to help him offset Victor's magicks.
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Cracked.com knows all this stuff.
"You know how crooks fear Batman because they don't know he won't kill them? That's because up until the '50s he racked a body count so high that dictators consider it a little excessive. His early adventures all end with him "accidentally" tripping a crook into a vat of acid, and if that failed, he just shot them in the face for the good of society -- a classic tactic of affluent people when the underclass disturb the social order."
Down with The Batman!
Down with Dr. Doom!
The working class has no side in this struggle! No support to Gotham City or Latveria!
No war but the class war!
Vive le Galt!!
Bill and Ted would whip both of them.
Squirrel Girl
This is why I hate time travel.
Also: I'm not going to give this its own thread... but...
Dr. Doom vs. Doctor Who?
On the one hand, Doom is more powerful by far.
On the other hand, the Doctor never loses to anyone...
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Dr Who defeats robot armies several times a season. The TARDIS is cooler than Doom's time portal. The Doctor, would sacrifice his own race if it was necessary. Killing Doom wouldn't cause sleep loss. The Doctor can defeat Doom's mind transfer through technology or innate telepathy. The Doctor would find Doom's armor quaint.
And Time itself gave him a big smackdown when he went into Time Lord Victorious mode in "Waters of Mars".
I found that episode creepier than "Blink", myself. @_@ The combination of the freaky opponent and what the Doctor gets like when he lets himself off his leash... not pretty.
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Have not logged in years, but had to for this comment:
"Cause rules are for people who don't have WMDs as close friends."
I just cannot express how much "comic-truth" win is contained in that sentence. Still chuckling 30 mins later. Well done, good sir, well done, indeed.
Best,
LS
Dr. Dooom for sure.
You were supposed to. That episode was a classic example of pure horror.And Time itself gave him a big smackdown when he went into Time Lord Victorious mode in "Waters of Mars".I found that episode creepier than "Blink", myself. @_@ The combination of the freaky opponent and what the Doctor gets like when he lets himself off his leash... not pretty.
Agreed wholeheartedly on the part I didn't quote.
The Angels on the other hand? Not a trigger issue. "They teleport you back X years in the past? I'm cool with that."