ok i have 6 3rd lvl players, which leads to APL of 4 but i want an epic fight with them so APL +3
so the xp CR would be 7 (3210 xp total)
would 4 (cr 3)ogres be epic for them? because ive been misread the formula for the encounters and cr and they been mowing through them
i think my mistake was i was using lower lvl monsters against them
ex. 3(cr2)boggards vs 6 3rd lvl pcs which they stomped them
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For a group of 6 players (The current size of my own group) I find that action economy adds at LEAST +2 to the APL for determining the the CR's you should throw at them, as such I would recommend giving one of the Ogres a couple class levels (Probably ranger or fighter, barbarian is a bit much), giving him a name, personality, and a +1 weapon the party cant use.
That is if you want a really challenging encounter.
That seems like it should be pretty epic to me. 4 creatures equals CR+4 so 3ogres = cr3+4 = 7.
On paper at least it looks good.
The action economy should be fine, with there being 4 monsters in the encounter.
Reasons I can think of why they might be winning easy:
Did you use a high point buy? Or if they rolled, did you let them reroll stats they didn't like? This can result in overpowered characters.
Do they have gear appropriate for their level according to the WBL table?
Are you using good tactics for the monsters?
If the monsters have enough treasure value to have useful items in their horde, are you equipping them with those items so they can use them against the PC's?
I missed something you said. That boggard fight looks like a cakewalk to me.
how would this work if i used cr 2 monsters apl+2
they would be fighting like 15 cr2 to equal apl+2?
we just started playing pathfinder from D&D 1st ed. so im trying to let them see as many monsters that pathfinder offers
Agreed the Boggard fight looks way to easy to throw at 6th level.
In my own game I just tossed a Dire Croc (CR9) at my party of 8 level 4's. Granted they had some tactical advantages, i.e. he couldn't use his tail-slap, but they took it like champs. It was tough but not overly so.
yea they are pretty smart, there groupleader played 1st ed d&d for over 30 years. he leads and most follow and yea they are kinda op atm due to loot >.< not by much, some have +1 weps and such
I think +1 weapons puts them well over WBL. If they are optimized and have good gear and good stats you should think of them as at least APL 5.
So the boggard fight should be an off-broadway production of STOMP.
Not that there's anything wrong with that some fights can be easy, they still tax some resources and grind you down over the course of a long adventuring day.
how would this work if i used cr 2 monsters apl+2
they would be fighting like 15 cr2 to equal apl+2?
we just started playing pathfinder from D&D 1st ed. so im trying to let them see as many monsters that pathfinder offers
Mix it up. Use CR2's as mooks/minions for something bigger.
Example, replace one of those ogres with 2 or 3 orcs, maybe give them reach weapons.
Another thing, maybe mix up the encounter with something that can cast or has interesting spell-like abilities, or immunities.
Example, a single Oni might be a good epic encounter for them at CR 8, although they could probably just overwhelm him with sheer numbers especially if he doesn't win initiative.
ok i see, because i was looking at cr 6 young white dragon and they are pretty strong against them atm by stats and such
Dragons are a little bit tougher then most creatures of the same CR, if you play them right.
If you throw that dragon at them, have it be a situation where he doesn't really care and he just gets annoyed and flies away if they get him to half HP or something.
Here is my 2 cents and for the price and am probably wrong (lol).
The group APL being calculated by the size of the group leads me to group the bad guys the same way. So if I use the normal Orcs I use 3 per level per person...the opposing force gets pretty large that way.
At the same time I limit the amount of XP they get by subtracting the APL from the CR of who they are facing...I have some crafty players most of the time so this is how I balance it. My 2 cents, like I said.
ok lemme fix this boggard problem so for future reference >.>
APL+2 CR6 XP2400+2400+2400=7200 7200/600 = 12 boggards = APL+2 awarding 6 3rd lvl pc 1200xp for the fight. i can live with that
Oh! Quick thought! You know the larger something is the more weight they can carry compared to smaller beings with the same STR, right. So why not use the carry multiplier as a multiplier for STR bonus damage? Puts the fear of larger opponents back into the players.
lol its all good, i thank you all for helping figure this out. im glad there are ppl willing to help out and give advice. ty all again
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AS a longtime GM of large parties my best helper is max hp's for the monsters and add +50% mooks to any pre-written encounter. The base numbers aside, you need to look at the make-up of your group and build the encounter around both them and your story.
For example if you have a ranged specialist like an archer, gunslinger, or blasting caster be sure to include highly mobile foes to harry them (like flying creatures) or counter snipers.
Do you have a melee type that can dish out loads and loads of damage like Cavaliers, smiting paladins, or two weapon style fighters & barbarians? Make sure you throw out BIG monsters that are made of hit points or have high defensive abilities OR swamp them with hoards of mooks. Nothing says yeah I'm a badass like mowing down the biggest thing on the battlefield or jumping in the middle of a mass of foes and cutting your way out.
Make those XP count! Also increase the number of encounters they have in a day. If the rules say 4 encounters, use 5 or 6. Find the right balance of resource management. Don't skimp on the battlefield either, setting the stage for the fight is as important as what they're fighting. Do you have good cover for your goblin slingers? Is there a charging lane for a mounted character or enemy? What's the light level? Are there areas for climb, swimb, or acrobatics checks for the monk, ninja, or ranger to take advantage of?
--Schoolhouse Vrock
Believe it or not, according to the rules, 4 boggard is a CR 6 encounter, not 12 boggards.
ah i see so i put something like there cr lvl plus mooks instead of just having all mooks :P
Double check your math on the boggards, 12 of them is very high. That would be at least a CR 9 encounter, and very overwhelming.
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You need to mix it up. Having a room of just some robed cultists (rogues) with daggers in a temple is fine for more than one encounter if you have a carrion golem, two acolyte clerics, and the high Inquisitor waiting in the final room. A trap or two (magical and mundane) can round out a small hidden shrine nicely.
Your Boggards might have a Crocodile or even a Marsh Giant ally. Maybe they are working for a Green Hag or they can call in some Harpies. Use your ranger Boggards to lure the PCs into the lair of a Shambling mound or an area with some assassin vines.
lol i got it now, apl 4+2 would be a cr 6 total
2400xp/600xp = 4, your right but they would still mow them down
most of the pcs are melee heavy, barbarian,fighter,monk and lol fire cleric lol and i got a ranger and wizard (all 3rd lvl)
so 1 boss + mooks would be better then just have mooks
What he said ^^^^
That sounds good.
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You need to have at least one combatant or hazard/obstacle per PC. APL +2 is only "hard" but throw in some terrain and hazards and you can even it up a bit. Deep bogs can slow down your melee types with swim checks. A mosquito swarm coupled with an assassin vine and some ranged attackers is a good encounter!
about that vrock, they were fighting those 3 boggards, and my barbarian rolled 1 and another 1, so he throw his greataxe in the swamp and had to use a handaxe that he had been carrying. atm they are doing bounties kinda like search and destroy them because of 1st ed d&d,we are kinda got tired of dungeon crawling, so ive been having them fight in forest,swamp and such ( i have props for them XD)
most of these monsters are kinda new to them so i kinda keep them mono tone to them so they know what they are fighting in future reference
You should think of this party as APL 5 instead of 4. They have good gear, 6 people, I bet they have high stats too.
A third level character should have about 750 to spend on weapons. A plus one sword is over 2000 GP. So I think they have a lot of gear. Have them fight stuff without treasure for a few fights. Oozes, vermin, some undead. How about some owlbears, away from their lair so there's no treasure. Do a few fights like this so their treasure levels out to where it should be.
You could make the boggards challenging just by changing up their tactics. Have them stalk the PC's, ambush them, and snipe them from behind cover. From the water even, those things can swim. Have them poke their head out of the water 30 feet away under the cover of darkness and croak. Perception checks wont spot them with the penalty for distance, in the dark, submerged in water. Have most or all of them do this. A few of the PCs should be shaken by this , for a -2 to attacks & saves. A couple might even be frightened and run away. That's only the surprise round. In the first round maybe each boggard hurls a spear, then swims closer underwater. Next round the boggards attempt sticky tongue attacks on a single PC (probably a lightly armored one) until one hits with the tongue. The rest charge through the swampy terrain with swamp stride and focus fire on the single PC. With a bonus to hit from charge, they might all hit against the penalized AC on the shaken character. They do about 7 damage a swing so if the first boggard hit with the tongue, the 3 charging boggards will do about 21 damage. That could drop a 3rd level PC. Now how easy does the fight look, if the fighter already failed his will saves and ran away, and the wizard or the cleric is unconscious and bleeding to death, and there's 4 boggards that haven't been hit yet?