So was looking recent through the elemental races (Oreads, Sylph, Ifrit, Undine) in the ARG and noticed that in the race builder they are only 6 RP. That seems dreadfully low compared to even the core races that range from 9-11. Now that Paizo has quantified race power, it has made some of my players become even less interested in branching out from the "powerful" races (although Samsaran has been a hit with the group, but I would consider it a power race).
Was thinking about allowing anyone that picks a ARG race that has 8 RP or less to add one of their alternate racial traits without the trait replacement or a racial feat to make them more appealing. It makes a lot of the weaker races very compelling and I have not found any problem yet. Anyone else have this kind of problem and/or a solution to it?
I think in actual play the difference between races doesn't matter a lot and matters less the further from lvl 1 you go. Sure goblins are weak and while a goblin wizard is weaker than an elf wizard a goblin rogue is probably stronger than an elf one.
The only time you need to look at a boost is if someone in the group is playing a stronger race like say a tie fling. But I found in the long run that wasn't a big deal either.
Was thinking about allowing anyone that picks a ARG race that has 8 RP or less to add one of their alternate racial traits without the trait replacement or a racial feat to make them more appealing.
I like the idea.
Alternatively you could allow everyone to spend the amount of RP that he's below a number set by you (10 or the highes RP among races played)to upgrade their race.
ok what is a ARG and what is a RP?
"Advanced Race Guide" and "Racial Power" - a numerical SWAG at just how innately strong a given race is, for use in comparing with other baseline races.
Now if we talk too much like that for too long we'll have to break out our sheets and pointy masked hats.
ok what is a ARG and what is a RP?"Advanced Race Guide" and "Racial Power" - a numerical SWAG at just how innately strong a given race is, for use in comparing with other baseline races.
Now if we talk too much like that for too long we'll have to break out our sheets and pointy masked hats.
SWAG?
Have you even seen the kobold?
I mean that is the de facto weakest race, with horrid penalties and only 5 RP.
ok what is a ARG and what is a RP?
The ARG is the advanced race guide and in that book there is something called RP that defined how many of those Race points or tsomething where used to build a race with a modular race build system.
So was looking recent through the elemental races (Oreads, Sylph, Ifrit, Undine) in the ARG and noticed that in the race builder they are only 6 RP. That seems dreadfully low compared to even the core races that range from 9-11. Now that Paizo has quantified race power, it has made some of my players become even less interested in branching out from the "powerful" races (although Samsaran has been a hit with the group, but I would consider it a power race).
Was thinking about allowing anyone that picks a ARG race that has 8 RP or less to add one of their alternate racial traits without the trait replacement or a racial feat to make them more appealing. It makes a lot of the weaker races very compelling and I have not found any problem yet. Anyone else have this kind of problem and/or a solution to it?
OR you could simply change the Ability Score Modifier from Standard to Flexible (eliminating the negative modifier).
This would increase their totals from 6 to 8.
I'm planning on trying to get all of the sub 10RP races up to around 10 or 11.
For a lot of them, a better stat array works wonders.
You can take an RP 8 orc and bring it to 11 just by switching it's stats from +4 str, -2 int, wis, cha to +4 str, -2 cha.
SWAG?Scientific Wild-Arse Guess. An imperfect but still useful improvement on just wildly guessing, which is what people have to do without RP point scales.
Have you even seen the kobold?
I mean that is the de facto weakest race, with horrid penalties and only 5 RP.
It's tradition. And I still like kobolds. I still plan on having a kobold lackey some day, and running a kobold character another. Built right I'm sure it will be fun.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am coming to loathe that ridiculous Race Builder. It is giving people crazy ideas, like "RP mean anything." Powerful abilities cost less than purely worse versions, skill points are wildly overpriced, and the whole thing only deals with a small part of what balances races. I would not recommend it for any purpose, especially not for comparing races built outside of the system.
The standard races, and even many of the featured and uncommon races, are not balanced on the value of individual abilities, but the overall package. Synergy, alternate features, racial feats and archetypes, and many other factors go into how balanced a race is, and even a Race Builder system with values that accurately reflected use would not give a good idea of how useful a race would actually be in use. For example, the Ifrit and Oread both get to count their Charisma as 2 higher if they have the elemental bloodline. However, the Oread has a Charisma penalty, while the Ifrit has a bonus. This means that the Oread is just brought up to average as a Sorcerer, while the Ifrit has the equivalent of +4 to their main stat, making them extraordinarily good as Sorcerers. Yet both races are valued the same, because the Race Builder does not deal with these factors.
So no, I do not think this is a good idea. The vast majority of the races in the book are totally suitable for player use as-is, with no need to add abilities because arbitrary RP values are different. If anything, giving extra abilities would do far more to imbalance races than minor variations between most of the options presented.
I am coming to loathe that ridiculous Race Builder. It is giving people crazy ideas, like "RP mean anything." Powerful abilities cost less than purely worse versions, skill points are wildly overpriced, and the whole thing only deals with a small part of what balances races. I would not recommend it for any purpose, especially not for comparing races built outside of the system.
The standard races, and even many of the featured and uncommon races, are not balanced on the value of individual abilities, but the overall package. Synergy, alternate features, racial feats and archetypes, and many other factors go into how balanced a race is, and even a Race Builder system with values that accurately reflected use would not give a good idea of how useful a race would actually be in use. For example, the Ifrit and Oread both get to count their Charisma as 2 higher if they have the elemental bloodline. However, the Oread has a Charisma penalty, while the Ifrit has a bonus. This means that the Oread is just brought up to average as a Sorcerer, while the Ifrit has the equivalent of +4 to their main stat, making them extraordinarily good as Sorcerers. Yet both races are valued the same, because the Race Builder does not deal with these factors.
So no, I do not think this is a good idea. The vast majority of the races in the book are totally suitable for player use as-is, with no need to add abilities because arbitrary RP values are different. If anything, giving extra abilities would do far more to imbalance races than minor variations between most of the options presented.
I agree that the race builder is all over the place and point values seem skewed. My goto example is half-undead is 5 RP, while all the abilities for half-undead individually cost 3 RP.
That said, when player races are listed at around half the RP cost of their core counterparts, that causes me to take pause and think about why that is. It also means that my campaigns consist of mostly humans, dwarves, and half-elves, because a lot of the races that were previously questionable in ability have now had their weakness outed by the same authors that made them. Just because Ifrits are decent for 1 class, does not make all of the races that are less than 6 RP ok.
Orcs are decent barbarians. just Dump int and Cha, and you are fairly good to go.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That said, when player races are listed at around half the RP cost of their core counterparts, that causes me to take pause and think about why that is.
There are some races that are weaker than others. Kobolds, even with their options, are very weak. However, this does not apply to most of the races. The elemental races, for example, have few RP because they aren't padded out with skill bonuses. +2 to Profession (Beggar)? 2 RP. Elemental Affinity? 1 RP. While they might not compare to, say, the Dwarf, they are all passable races, and situationaly strong as-is.
It also means that my campaigns consist of mostly humans, dwarves, and half-elves, because a lot of the races that were previously questionable in ability have now had their weakness outed by the same authors that made them.
First, they probably aren't the same authors. There are many freelances and developers working for Paizo, and it is unlikely that the majority of the races were written by the same people who made the Race Builder.
Second, your own example shows the issue with this approach. People want to play Dwarves (11RP), Half-Elves (10RP), and Humans (9RP). Why not Elves or Gnomes at 10RP? The Dwarves are obvious, as they are wildly undervalued in terms of RP, but Half-Elves and Humans have great versatility that makes them more common than their RP cost would indicate. When you add in a pile of alternate races, Half-Elves and Humans will become less valuable, as their versatility will be less useful than picking a race that synergizes especially well with what one is doing. If you are allowing things from the ARG anyway, and indeed want to see weirder races get used, you don't need to add extra incentive. Picking specifically suited races for specific tasks will do it for you already.
Just because Ifrits are decent for 1 class, does not make all of the races that are less than 6 RP ok.
I gave one example, but it is one in a giant sea. For example, look at the Ifrit's alternate racial traits. Fire in the Blood allows one to fully heal by sticking your face in a torch for a while. Or you can take Wildfire Heart, a +4 boost to Initiative that stacks with Improved Initiative, securing the Ifrit's place as a powerful option for any sort of Charisma based caster.
Or the Oread. They can trade their garbage magic stone spell-like ability for the ability to create difficult terrain. Bye bye, pounce. They also get a feat that gives them both Slow and Steady and Stonecunning, a very nice trade. Or the Samsarans, whose Mystic Past Life moved them from "Aasimar: Bad Version" to a borderline overpowered option. Or Vishkanya, who can turn their 1 RP Toxic into an encounter ender with the Sleep Venom feat.
The vast majority of the races in the book are totally fine for play as written, especially with all the race specific options available. If they are a synergistic class, they can even be extremely powerful. There is no reason to give out free abilities because an utterly arbitrary Race Builder gave low values to some of them. If anything, it should be taken on a case by case basis, perhaps giving a little bonus to those who choose to play against type, regardless of race. But in general, extra abilities don't need to be passed out to keep races as balanced as the core races themselves are (that is to say, not particularly).
Sounds like the ARG is nothing but a hassle. Is it even worth getting?
If you cut out the race builder section then its not bad.