My group is interested in adding some Concealed Weapon Ports to their vessel. However, we are confused on this wording:
Each concealed port reduces a ship’s cargo capacity by 5 tons, in addition to the space required by the weapon itself.
Does this mean that a Siege Weapon takes up cargo space? If so, how much?
Finally, if they wish to have a new ship made for them, how long would it take? I'm assuming that the Craft skill is a guideline, but I'm not sure how exactly to represent a work crew creating a ship. Would it be a bunch of aid anothers to the master craftsman? Or is this over thinking the problem, and the answer would be something more like two months?
If your PCs want to have a ship custom built, I would simply find a ship-building port and start with the base price for the type of ship they want, then outfit it with the custom modifications and add those to the base price. I don't think checks are really necessary unless they are determined to build it themselves.
As for time in game, I would say a couple months for construction sounds fair. You could add or subtract time based on the Infamy threshold, with worker slowdowns or speed ups based on Intimidate or Diplomacy checks made by the Captain. Bribes might work in speeding up the time too.
Hmm... I like this idea... I might be back to this thread...
I'm still desperately waiting for Amazon to deliver my Skull & Shackles.
I would like to suggest another way to build ships... use the craft rules. Big ships are complex at DC 20. They can be built at a rate of 1000 gp per day. The Core rules has base prices for ships plus modifications...
cheers
Per standard craft rules, ships take a long time to build. A long long long time.
A standard sailing ship is 10,000gp. Thats 100,000 silver. As a complex item, it would be a DC of 20.
An average master craftsman would be a level 5 expert with an int of 18, max ranks, skill focus, masterwork tools, for a rough general modifier of +17. While it is difficult to guess how many workmen he would have (lvl 1 experts with mods of around +5) 20 is a fair estimate. With a +5 mod, they would succeed on aiding 3/4 of the time, giving a average net bonus to his check of +30. If he takes 10, he gets 27, for a total of 57. He could safely increase the DC by 10, to 30 (risking failure only if all but one of his workcrew fail to aid). 30 x 57 gives 1710 silver per week. 171gp. This would take an average of 58 weeks, or a little over 14 months to complete.
Doubling the work crew would shorten that to 9.5 months. Again, its hard to say how many people could efficiently work on the boat at once. However, considering how many different tasks were in progress (sails, rigging, hull, tarring, finishing, metalworking) it may be reasonable for a team of 40 or even more.
Consider this: even with the more modern technology of the times, the Titanic took 3 years to build. The wikipedia entry for Galleons cites that hundreds of craftsmen would work for months before it was seaworthy.
Tying back to S&S, it costs 2000 for Rickety's Squibbing. It describes a crew swarming over the ship, and the job is done in an average of 6 days. 2000 / 6 = 333 gold. Technically, that would take a work crew in excess of 400 by the normal craft rules. Something is obviously not working so well there. I have my own houserules to help crafting make sense, but that is outside the scope of this post.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, to say, but the "storytelling" in AP-II does not really take into account real shipbuilding.
First-off, there is and never was "squibbing". There just was not, so taking an irreal process as the base for calculations is ... futile.
Second, actual ships in the age of wood where build within a few months time, IF the materials were on site. The french small friagate L'Unite, later the HMS Surprise took about 7 months to fully equip and set sail from being ordered. A 130' long, late 18th century frigate, not some less complicated in build galleon. The VOC Batavia, a 17th century Dutch East Indiaman took less than a year to build, in war-torn Europe, with supplies of shipbuilding woods from the Baltic under constant wartime pressure.
Third, actual shipbuilding in the wooden age was far simpler than build something like the titanic, since cutting up and placing the Psars could be done simultaneously by work-crews working in paralell.
So building a less complicated pirate vessel, in an area where strong hardwoods are readily available presents no really great problem. The main problem usually facing a vessel upon completion is finding a crew, gaining suitable cannonage and getting fully equipped with stores.
None of which really applies to pirates who... commonly should have a fully equipped ship already, simply transfering their stores
I'd apply a building rate of roughly 700-1000 gp/day, reliant on quality and number of shipwrights and assistants in the workforce (and remember that most any seaman is also trained as a semi-skilled carpenter for shipboard repairs, if possible under supervision )
In an attempt to fit the Craft rules to the unreal process of squibbing or ship modification, maybe you can chop a ship into 7 or 8 separate sections. I saw some homebrew ship combat do that to distribute the HP of the ship: bow, fore-starboard, aft-starboard, stern, aft-port, fore-port, rigging, and maybe keel. Then, you can have 8 master-craftsman with 20 crew each "swarm" all over the ship and increase the pace of crafting.
Of course, story-telling GM fiat works, too.
cheers
Per standard craft rules, ships take a long time to build. A long long long time.
A standard sailing ship is 10,000gp. Thats 100,000 silver. As a complex item, it would be a DC of 20.
An average master craftsman would be a level 5 expert with an int of 18, max ranks, skill focus, masterwork tools, for a rough general modifier of +17. While it is difficult to guess how many workmen he would have (lvl 1 experts with mods of around +5) 20 is a fair estimate. With a +5 mod, they would succeed on aiding 3/4 of the time, giving a average net bonus to his check of +30. If he takes 10, he gets 27, for a total of 57. He could safely increase the DC by 10, to 30 (risking failure only if all but one of his workcrew fail to aid). 30 x 57 gives 1710 silver per week. 171gp. This would take an average of 58 weeks, or a little over 14 months to complete.
Doubling the work crew would shorten that to 9.5 months. Again, its hard to say how many people could efficiently work on the boat at once. However, considering how many different tasks were in progress (sails, rigging, hull, tarring, finishing, metalworking) it may be reasonable for a team of 40 or even more.
Consider this: even with the more modern technology of the times, the Titanic took 3 years to build. The wikipedia entry for Galleons cites that hundreds of craftsmen would work for months before it was seaworthy.
Tying back to S&S, it costs 2000 for Rickety's Squibbing. It describes a crew swarming over the ship, and the job is done in an average of 6 days. 2000 / 6 = 333 gold. Technically, that would take a work crew in excess of 400 by the normal craft rules. Something is obviously not working so well there. I have my own houserules to help crafting make sense, but that is outside the scope of this post.
We had a truly bad-@ss ship built for us with a number of very impressive modifications... we drew up the plans and put a sizable downpayment on it at the end of Raiders of the Fever Sea and recieved it midway through The Price of Infamy. Took a lot of patience but led to a lot of anticipation on our part.
I suppose what I was trying to say in my presumably detailed but apparently merely long-winded way was: no caravel class ship is going to be built in 10 days without major magical assistance. 1000gp per day of progress is outside the realm of suspended disbelief. In fact, my math bore out your own rebuttal: a crew of 60 could build such a ship in about 9 months (you mentioned seven). Apparently my reference to the Titanic was also misinterpreted.
Yes, squibbing is unrealistic. But to me, it is far more realistic than building a complex, engineered, seaworthy vessel larger than most mansions in a little over a week.
I suppose what I was trying to say in my presumably detailed but apparently merely long-winded way was: no caravel class ship is going to be built in 10 days without major magical assistance. 1000gp per day of progress is outside the realm of suspended disbelief. In fact, my math bore out your own rebuttal: a crew of 60 could build such a ship in about 9 months (you mentioned seven). Apparently my reference to the Titanic was also misinterpreted.
Yes, squibbing is unrealistic. But to me, it is far more realistic than building a complex, engineered, seaworthy vessel larger than most mansions in a little over a week.
If you have the material on site, and the necessary machinery (especially a means of fast precise sawing and possibly a steaming box for bending planks, that... could be done
on SITE. Pre-worked (dried, cleaned, general shaping) and enough workforce and equipment (tools) available
First-off, there is and never was "squibbing". There just was not, so taking an irreal process as the base for calculations is ... futile.
I kindly disagree. American did it.
To carry out this mission, the Continental Congress began to build up, through purchase, conversion, and new construction, a cruiser navy of small ships--frigates, brigs, sloops, and schooners.
The simple act of changing the name or paint (or adding weapons) could be considered Squibbing even though it probably wasn't referred to that way. Changing the design/decor is extravagant, but probably wasn't beyond the wealthy of the times either.
The rest of your points are great though.
|
My group is interested in adding some Concealed Weapon Ports to their vessel. However, we are confused on this wording:
Each concealed port reduces a ship’s cargo capacity by 5 tons, in addition to the space required by the weapon itself.Does this mean that a Siege Weapon takes up cargo space? If so, how much?
To answer the original question, the modification of the concealed weapons port is what replaces available cargo space, not the actual weapon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Per standard craft rules, ships take a long time to build. A long long long time.
Well, "standard craft rules" are well understood to be broken.
Tying back to S&S, it costs 2000 for Rickety's Squibbing. It describes a crew swarming over the ship, and the job is done in an average of 6 days. 2000 / 6 = 333 gold. Technically, that would take a work crew in excess of 400 by the normal craft rules. Something is obviously not working so well there.
Well, there are several factors that could be at play here. The first is simply that the economics of the black market does not follow normal rules; the players could easily be paying 200gp for the squibbing and 1800gp for the "no questions asked" part of the deal. If the PCs were able simply to sail into Bloodport and ask openly to have the ship altered, it might be substantially cheaper.
The second is that there's a tendency to regard crafting in Pathfinder as a single unitary task, when in the real world it's often possible to divide a complex task up into several independent simpler tasks to make the overall work faster. With the Pathfinder crafting rules, this makes thing even more effective. While Rickety and his crew are changing the fore and stern castles (a major job, DC 20), Huey and his crew are re-rigging the ship (only DC 15), Dewey and his crew are installing a new figurehead (DC 15), and Louie and his crew is simply applying a new coat of paint (DC 10). It can take a lot less time for four ten man crews to do four 500gp jobs than it does for one forty-man crew to do a single 2000gp job.
And of course, there are also issues of having stuff ready to go, issues that would not be a factor in building from scratch. That figurehead Dewey is installing? There are four of them, ready carved, in the shed over there. As soon as you leave, Dewey and his crew will carve another one, but that can happen off-camera.
The most important thing, of course, is that events in any RPG happen at the speed of plot. Who wants to hang around all month literally watching the paint dry? If you want more enforced downtime, you can make the operation take as long or as short as you want, but the adventure as written is supposed to be Skull and Shackles, not Adzes and Awls.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First-off, there is and never was "squibbing". There just was not, so taking an irreal process as the base for calculations is ... futile.
I kindly disagree. American did it.
To carry out this mission, the Continental Congress began to build up, through purchase, conversion, and new construction, a cruiser navy of small ships--frigates, brigs, sloops, and schooners.
The simple act of changing the name or paint (or adding weapons) could be considered Squibbing even though it probably wasn't referred to that way. Changing the design/decor is extravagant, but probably wasn't beyond the wealthy of the times either.
The rest of your points are great though.
we could call the painted on or canvas shrouding for a short period of time "squibbing". have a look at "master and Commander" - both the movie and the factual book. though - who would reallly purchase some canvas for 2000gp ?
BUT : a ship is a composite of its hull shape and size, the placement and size of masts, the location of holds and superstructure. affecting its performance. the IRL Admiral Alexander Cochrane, the man after whom fictitious Jack Aubrey was shaped, just as an example found out that placing two larger cannons on his foredeck both cost him 20% speed, and their actual firing through recoil tore his foreship apart. He never tried how the ship would handle in heavier seas... he went back to the much lighter original cannons.
pirates steal cargo... what precisely is keeping them from stealing the actual ships the cargo is on to hide their tracks ? taking a look at the "Whyddah" "Queen Anne's Revenge" or "Royal Fortune" here...
don't squib... steal !
An if you have 120 tons of capacity for the cargo hold... you ccan't put 120 tons of gun on deck, which would make the craft topple over. One may add hammocks and additional provision spaces below deck good or raiding, bad for endurance.
One may.... and that would be very hard, add some smugggling compartments... since the walls have no insulation, and are usually build to be detached for combat ( a classic place would be hatchway covers or smaller loads).
A heavier hull.....would mean major inhibiton to sailing through additionl wettened space (slowing) less freeboard, and of course slow wallowing in the sea further breaking things down.
A larger rudder... could under very specific circumstances be an idea but again here the pressure point (which would mean an alteration of the entire keel ) and massively reinforced pintels and rudder chains. Nevermind a much increased watch on the wheel which is still moved without hydraulics or dampeners.
Aft castle/stern castle. Nice for fighting but major hassles in a storm and affecting drift.
Higher/lower masts, changed sail......will wreck either the speed, maneuverability, trim ( chance to move windwards or speed on most courses ) and probably make the ship top-heavy.
Best choices : get a better plan for a faster ship, find some way to increase material strength while maintaining stability.... or stealˆˆ Enchant the ship versus fire ( a besmaran Hallowing might be a good idea) . Protect the helmsman at all costs ( wall of force, glasssteel cylinder etc.). Enchant the ship with a silencing field. In an emergency... use illusions.
yes, my ex-GF (10 years) was running a small wharf/repair yardˆˆ I know my boats and sailcraft *grin*
Well, there are several factors that could be at play here. The first is simply that the economics of the black market does not follow normal rules; the players could easily be paying 200gp for the squibbing and 1800gp for the "no questions asked" part of the deal. If the PCs were able simply to sail into Bloodport and ask openly to have the ship altered, it might be substantially cheaper.
The second is that there's a tendency to regard crafting in Pathfinder as a single unitary task, when in the real world it's often possible to divide a complex task up into several independent simpler tasks to make the overall work faster. With the Pathfinder crafting rules, this makes thing even more effective. While Rickety and his crew are changing the fore and stern castles (a major job, DC 20), Huey and his crew are re-rigging the ship (only DC 15), Dewey and his crew are installing a new figurehead (DC 15), and Louie and his crew is simply applying a new coat of paint (DC 10). It can take a lot less time for four ten man crews to do four 500gp jobs than it does for one forty-man crew to do a single 2000gp job.
And of course, there are also issues of having stuff ready to go, issues that would not be a factor in building from scratch. That figurehead Dewey is installing? There are four of them, ready carved, in the shed over there. As soon as you leave, Dewey and his crew will carve another one, but that can happen off-camera.
The most important thing, of course, is that events in any RPG happen at the speed of plot. Who wants to hang around all month literally watching the paint dry? If you want more enforced downtime, you can make the operation take as long or as short as you want, but the adventure as written is supposed to be Skull and Shackles, not Adzes and Awls.
+1. Great post, and good breakdown on how Rickety might handle his business.
No, it may not match real-world experience (sorry, Vikingson ;D ) but it's fun and sounds more or less believable to all us landlubbers, so I guess this is where "willing suspension of disbelief" comes in.
that's ok fitz. but I do see groups of payers sort of revlting (andlater taking it out on rickety's) because of the huge contractual fees.
All that being said Rickety makes absolute sense as an out-of-the-way wharf, resupply depot, low-key trade area and shipyard.
I really wonder why they tried to enter the "pimp-my-ship" option........ next thing "shiny red metallic hue," which will put the fear of Besmara into anyone... +2 to scare merchants ! Nevermind the parrot-sub-woofer
Nevermind the parrot-sub-woofer
Great..... now I have the mental image of Pluck the parrot flying around the rigging going WUBWUBWUBWUBWUB...... ;D
Nevermind the parrot-sub-wooferGreat..... now I have the mental image of Pluck the parrot flying around the rigging going WUBWUBWUBWUBWUB...... ;D
Does Pluck have CL4P-TP's Hyperion brand voice in your head too?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
that's ok fitz. but I do see groups of payers sort of revlting (andlater taking it out on rickety's) because of the huge contractual fees.
That is of course always a risk -- in the real world as well -- any time you deal with the black market. If you are trying to buy a million squid worth of glitterstim from me, (or for that matter, the plans to the Bruce-Partington submarine, or $25,000 worth of diamonds, or a truckload of cigarettes), the temptation will always be there for you simply to kill me and take the goods from my body. Or, for that matter, for me to kill you and take the cash.
That's true irrespective of genre.
If someone takes a dislike to Rickety's practice, they can kill him, or for that matter, shop him to the Chelish navy. Of course, that will piss off a number of the more senior and powerful captains in the Shackles, and when word gets out, you might find that shutting down that operation over a mere 2000gp cost you a lot more in Raise Dead and Regeneration spells.
Squibbing has been done, allthough not by that name.
In WW2, the German commerce raider Atlantis could be modified to twenty-six different silhouettes (according to the wikipedia article). Sure, that was in another time, and for a ship whos survivial depended on fooling the allies.
nevermind them being non functional silhouettes (mostly to fool observation through telesscopes and countercheks with the ship register) .... and easily spotted at catapult/late-medieval caannon range.
What makes sailing ships so distinctive is the shape and location of the hull of their main propulsion system: masts, sails, standing riggingˆˆ
one might of course go a) with different cut/shaped/coloured sails b) butter the ship up with some "permanent illusions" spells... which might just be cheaperˆˆ
nevermind them being non functional silhouettes (mostly to fool observation through telesscopes and countercheks with the ship register) .... and easily spotted at catapult/late-medieval caannon range.
What makes sailing ships so distinctive is the shape and location of the hull of their main propulsion system: masts, sails, standing riggingˆˆ
one might of course go a) with different cut/shaped/coloured sails b) butter the ship up with some "permanent illusions" spells... which might just be cheaperˆˆ
Thank you for a brillient idea. I never thought of that one....