I've got a character idea all made up, but I need help with the details. What I'm thinking of is a NE Halfling 1 Rouge/(at least)15 Bard [Sandman]/2 Shadowdancer. Might throw two levels of Arcane Trickster or just put Bard up to 17. My questions are.
1) How useful is the Sandman's stealspell performance? How much use can I expect to get out of it?
2) What Rouge archetype would be best? I'm thinking Chameleon or Knife Master. Both seem to be very good for just one level. I'm leaning slightly more towards Knife Master personally just because my Stealth is already going to be crazy high and because the improved sneak attack damage will help mitigate the loss I get from not having any sneak attack die. This isn't exactly going to be a melee character though, so I'm still undecided.
3) Is Arcane Trickster worth it? And if so, at which levels? (Remember I wouldn't be getting more than two levels).
Any other ideas or tips would be appreciated. Thank you.
1) Spellsteal is a melee touch ability, so if you plan to use it offensively, you're going to need at least some focus on being in melee.
The Will save to resist it is a pain to get around -- any enemies you try to steal spells from are naturally going to have pretty high Will saves, being casters and all (Clerics and certain Sorcerers, particularly, with their intrinsic focus on Wisdom).
But there's an added level of flexibility in Spellsteal that makes it much more worth having, in my opinion. I prefer to use it on my allies (who can voluntarily fail their Will save) -- steal a useful spell from a different spell list, use it as many times as you can (the Lingering Performance has synergy here), give the spell back to your full-caster buddy.
At 15th level, though, you'll only have 5th level spell slots (which makes you, as an ally, a bit better than Quicken Spell; for the temporary loss of the spell, the spell can be cast several additional times by you, preserving the other caster's spell slots and action economy. Assuming you didn't have anything better to use your own for, that is). And not too many of them to spare, really.
Possibly unfortunately, this moves you into an almost purely support role while you're Spellstealing in this manner -- whatever the other caster *could* have been doing is now your focus, for a few rounds, while they go off and do whatever else they need to do.
In summation, Spellsteal is a useful, flexible ability that can be as useful as you can be creative, so long as you have other casters in your party or fight a slew of enemy casters and have a whole lot of uses of the performance. More spellcasting allies means more flexibility and power for you, so group composition can make or break it.
2) I'm not sure if Spellsteal counts as an attack for the purposes of adding Sneak Attack damage (my instinct says it is, since it requires an attack roll. I'm not entirely sure), but it most certainly is *not* a knife. So if you *can* add Sneak Attack to it, you'd be gimping it by taking Knife Master. Spellstealing is probably the most effective thing you can do with your time, even in melee (steal a Shocking Grasp or something, why not), so I'm not sure if an additional 1-or-so damage/5-ish levels with a dagger is worth the investment. As a Sandman, your Sneak Attack damage looks like it'll be 5d6 (3d6 from Sandman 15, 1d6 from Rogue 1, 1d6 from Arcane Trickster 2). It's 4d6 if you take more Bard levels instead of Arcane Trickster. I'm not particularly familiar with Rogue Archetypes, but you do want one that trades away Trapfinding (since you get it from being a Sandman). Chameleon looks pretty useful, though. You may look at not taking Rogue levels at all. What it gives you is, effectively, 1d4/6/8 Sneak Attack and/or a buff to stealth. You may be better off one more Sandman or Shadowdancer level.
3) You're netting two levels of spellcasting from Arcane Trickster, an extra 1d4/6/8 Sneak Attack, and the ability to Disable Devices from afar. You lose a point of DC on your Spellsteal (10+1/2 Bard level+CHA). As covered, Sneak Attack isn't super-incredibly useful for you, so I'd advise against Trickster in this instance. From two levels of bard, you'd keep your DC up and get your spellcasting, and whatever Favored Class Bonus you're getting, if any, but not the Disable Device or extra Sneak Attack.
I'd probably stick with Bard, personally, but the DC may prove to be a non-issue if you find yourself either never or always succeeding on your Spellsteals.
One level of Bard and one level of Shadowdancer could be good, as well -- you get the extra point of DC, one level of spellcasting, a Rogue Talent and some shadowy-stuff. Bard 16 is all you need for your highest-level spells, too. So there's that. If you don't take the Rogue level, you can get Sandman 16-18/Shadowdancer 2-4, depending on what Shadowdancer abilities you want. If you prefer Sneak Attack, the two levels of Arcane Trickster, probably taken as early as possible, looks to be the better option.
1) That's a very interesting idea. It hadn't occured to me that I could use it on allies. This is mostly a support build anyway, so that's fine with me.
2) I didn't know you rolled sneak attack damage for non-damaging attacks. And even so, it's still going to be more damage than nothing, so it's still a net gain. Also, I'm taking Rouge so I can actually put levels in Disable Device, since it's trained only and not a class skill for Bards (As far as I can tell, the Sandman thing doesn't actully give you Disable Device as a class skill, which seems to make it a bit pointless to me). And either way, it's thematic for the character, so I'd probably keep it either way.
3) I like the one more each of Bard and Shadowdancer. I forgot about the Summon Shadow ability, which will be very useful.
Thank you for your ideas.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, You wish to Try Sandman, which I am well skilled in. The steal spell is pretty good, but where you bread and butter will come from is the bonus to DC you get for your opponent being flat footed. Your going to want Spring Attack because you will want to get the heck out of range of whoever your stealing their spells from.
Here is my build
Human Bard (Sandman) 12
Pathfinder Society 20 Point Buy
10 STR (0)
14 DEX (5)
14 CON (5)
14 INT (5)
8 WIS (-2)
17 CHA (7) (+2 Racial)
Feats
Level 1 - Weapon Finesse, Dodge, 0-- Daze, Detect Magic, Light, Resistance, 1-- Grease, Saving Finale
Level 2 - 1st-Charm Person
Level 3 - Mobility, Ear- Peircing Scream
Level 4 - Bump (Charisma +1 plus headband for 20), 1st-Vanish 2-- Glitterdust, Cacophonous Call
Level 5 - Spring Attack
Level 6 - By now you should have an agile weapon, and a belt of DEX so +4 damage on your rapier, when you have to...
Level 7 - Harmonic Spell
Level 8 -
Level 9 - SF (Enchantment)
Level 10 - By this level your enchant spells will be a DC of 18 plus spell level while flat footed and if you have the intensify rod it will be a DC of 22 for your cough spell, which is sick, against anything.
Level 11 - GSF (Enchantment)
Level 12 -
Trait: Vagabond Child (gives you disable device as a class skill), Reactionary (you want to go first)