Understanding / Calculating Powerful Wildshape Feat for Druids

[theoposite]

I am hoping for a little clarification and interpretation from this board on how this feat might be applied.

Powerful Shape
When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).

The major question refers to what falls under that word SIZE when doing the calculation.

For instance, lets use the specific example of a Huge Elemental Wild Shape being equivalent under the purposes of this spell as a Gargantuan Elemental. I think when you look into the monster advancement and the Core, it is clear that you are entitled to Size Bonuses for CMB/CMD from Huge to Gargantuan of +4. (This can be found in Combat Section or Monster Advancement.)

However, CMB/CMD both utilize Strength for instance. Simple size change from Huge to Gargantuan per the tables is +8. I cannot grasp whether this +8 should be covered under then Feat's intention or outside of its scope. See Monster Advancement-Size Changes.

I lean toward outside the scope because under the Wild Shape rules, or rather the spells that govern them, size increases are different between Elementals and Animals and Plants all of similar sizes. The Wild Shape rules are not bound (though maybe indirectly are built directly from) to the Size Change rules per the Bestiary.

Obviously, going from Huge to Gargantuan is a big deal, for Improved Grab it can be a significant bonus to avoid being able to be held or to be able to hold a larger creature than otherwise; it is helpful to have the Size Bonus to the specific CMB/CMD per the tables; but it would be undoubtedly additionally beneficial if the calculation of the CMB/CMD also was governed by the increase of Str/Dex under the Size Change tables.

Thanks in advance. Your opinions, input and discussion are greatly appreciated, from this very long time lurker...first time poster.

[theoposite]

Not to give just a unwanted bump to my own thread, but...

I am beginning to wonder whether this confusion of mine is completely misplaced or if the answer is so yet to be determined that no one is willing to take a shot at it?

[Marc Radle]

Where is this feat from?

[Selgard]

Ultimate Magic.

[theoposite]

This feat is taken from Ultimate Magic

Powerful Shape
Your wild shapes are mighty and muscular.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).

[John Spalding]

I think you are reading it correctly. You do not get +8 str. You do not get the AC penalty for being large.

You just get the size bonus to CMB and treated as bigger for the relevant special attacks (many of which can only be used on particular size opponents).

[Take Boat]

The feat doesn't change your Strength and the Bestiary rules are anyways irrelevant. The only thing that affects your strength is the size bonus granted by the Beast Shape/Plant Shape/Elemental Body spell that Wild Shape is acting as. The bestiary tables are simply a suggestion for the kind of STR value a Gargantuan creature should have.

A Huge creature gets a +2 size bonus to CMD/CMB and a Gargantuan creature gets a +4 size bonus. They don't stack, so if you take that feat your CMB will simply increase by 2 while compared to your current Huge shape, that's it.

[Anguish]

I'm confused as to where the issue is.

CMB/CMD have a size modifier associated with them. CRB page 198. Going from Huge to Gargantuan changes your bonus to CMB from +2 to +4, for a net +2 increase. Same for CMD, next page in the book. So, first calculate your CMB/CMD based on your Huge wild shape, then add 2 to both because of this feat.

Page 170 has information for carrying capacity. A Huge creature has x4 carrying capacity while a Gargantuan one has x8. So, first calculate your carrying capacity based on your Huge wild shape, then double it because of this feat.

Special attacks used against you? Most of them have clauses that say things like "you can do this to a creature up to one size smaller than you". Well, if you're in a Huge wild shape and something Gargantuan tries to use an ability worded as such, it's going to fail on you because you're treated as also being Gargantuan.

Don't get advancement into the picture. Just do what the feat says... treat your size one category larger for specific purposes, all of which have wording that refers directly to size, telling you how they work.

Am I missing the quandary?

[theoposite]

I agree with the answers posted here and it is exactly as I suspected.

I guess my initial confusion Anguish is in the wording of the feat. If the feat read "treat your special size modifier for CMB/CMD as if one category large, your carrying capacity as one category larger and ...", I would have had no confusion.

However, it is words to say "...treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD..." As I appreciate it, CMB, for example, is calculated to be 'Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier.'

As we all know, increases in size changes Str, Dex, Con, Natural Armor and other hosts of things (especially with Wildshape's spells that define it). If you read it too technically, increasing size might change the Strength modifier AND special size modifier.

That is not what I thought it did, but perhaps under a too technical reading, I wanted to be certain I wasn't misreading it.

Glad to hear I was understanding it correctly though.

As always appreciated, even without posting, this boards insight is greatly helpful. Thanks