So I got my inspiration from another post and the advice I gave there.
Here is the basic concept:
Take Drunken Brute for the drinking as a move action continuing rage with drinking thing.
Take Savage Barbarian for the bonus to AC when armorless as the character will likely end up armorless. This stacks with Drunken Brute.
Take Ninja for the sneak attack and ninja tricks and small amount of Ki pool.
Possibly a level or two of Monk (Martial Artist*) for the unarmored AC benefits, Flurry of Blows, a couple bonus feats and increased unarmed strike damage.
The idea is to have a character that benefits from being drunk, fights unarmed and unarmored, intimidates via Cornugon Smash making them flat footed via Shatter Defenses and allow the Ninja sneak attacks to get in.
The problems I see with the build are:
1. It is MAD. It basically needs every stat except Int. Str for damage and boosting intimidate checks. Dex for AC and saves. Con for HP, saves, and Rage rounds/day. Wis for AC and saves. Cha for intimidate and Ki.
2. Because it is MAD I'm likely not going to be able to get his AC very high. With his abilities so spread out he also can't soak damage very well. However, demoralizing opponents into becoming Shaken does give them a -2 to hit which is as good as a +2 to AC. Plus there are some ninja tricks that will help with this.
3. Dipping to Monk it helps the build a lot by getting Improved Unarmed Strike, increased unarmed damage, Flurry of Blows, a couple of bonus feats (likely Dodge and Deflect Arrows) and Evasion. However, it also delays Sneak Attack Progression on the Ninja side which is already slowed down due to taking Barbarian levels. Also, Monk and Ninja are both 3/4 BAB progression so it delays entry into the one of the signature feats (Shatter Defenses) as it requires +6 BAB. However, I don't see putting more than 2 levels into Monk so while it will hurt it will mostly hurt it early.
4. The build is feat intensive using most of them towards meeting requirements early on.
So these are the feats that it needs:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Weapon Focus (prereq for Dazzling Display)
Dazzling Display (prereq for Shatter Defenses)
Shatter Defenses
Power Attack (need this to be able to effectively use Cornugon Smash)
Cornugon Smash
The good news is that I can use Ninja tricks to pick up a couple of these. Likely Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display. If I take Monk then I get Improved Unarmed Strike for free and get the bonus damage.
Other feats I'm strongly considering:
Intimidating Prowess to add Str to Intimidate. I likely wont have more than a 12 Cha but would like to continue boosting Str throughout the character's life.
Drunken Brawler. This would require getting Endurance which would pretty much be a wasted feat. However, taking Endurance does open up the door to Diehard and the Deathless line of feats which I like and thin are appropriate for this build. Although I would likely not be able to fit them in until late in the build.
Extra Rage
Toughness (without a high AC, he will likely need the HP)
The Crane Style feats + Combat Reflexes - with a low AC being able to deflect both an incoming ranged attack via Deflect Arrows and a melee attack via Crane Wing will definitely be helpful. By the time I get Crane Riposte gaining the extra damage per round will be helpful too especially with the extra Sneak Attack damage being added on.
Rage Powers I'm strongly considering:
Boasting Taunt - This isn't so much for the taunt (although that is useful too) as it is for the intimidate bonus from drinking.
Good for What Ails You
Liquid Courage - Because you really do not want to have this guy charmed and sent after your party.
Roaring Drunk
Staggering Drunk
I haven't put a full build together yet as I wanted some input before I started with all that. Perhaps I'm missing something big here that would be beneficial and change the order I select feats or classes in. Maybe someone has tried a similar build before.
What do you think? Suggestions? Comments? Personal attacks at my parentage?
Thank you for your comments, pobbes. I have considered your suggestions. Let me take them one at a time:
Drop monk. - It isn't just for the dice of damage, though that is certainly a consideration. It is more for a combination of free Improved Unarmed Strike (with bonus damage), Flurry of Blows, a couple of bonus feats (likely Dodge and Deflect Arrows) and Evasion. Your right, as beneficial as MoMS would be to this build I can't go that direction. In the end taking 2 levels of Monk only loses 1 BAB which isn't a major loss except that it delays Shatter Defenses for a level and Sneak Attack Progression for a level.
As far as AC is concerned I'm not so sure it is a big issue. Lets consider a 14 Dex and Wis for +3 to AC, dodge for +1, Savage Barbarian dodge bonus, Offensive Defense (I forgot to include other Ninja Tricks I was interested in for the build) for +x (x=Sneak Attack), Befuddling Strike for -2 to opponent attack and opponent will be shaken for -2. That gives an effective AC of 19+x (x=Sneak Attack amount). That is all before considering Deflect Arrows and the Crane Style feats or equipment.
So yeah, a base AC issue, for sure as his standing AC will likely only be in the 15-17 range but with the constant buffs and debuffs he provides just by using his staple moves I think you can see that it significantly boosts it. Plus there is just the flat out avoidance of Deflect Arrows and Crane Style feats.
Drop Ninja. - Ninja can take archetypes too. In fact, I was likely going to take Scout. I will admit that Thug would be good, though and I don't really need the Ki Pool. I will give this further consideration. I will point out that I wont need a very high Charisma even with Ninja though. Also, Monks do not get a Ki Pool until level 4 and I did not want to go that deep into Monk.
Wear Armor. - I don't want to go with an armored build for conceptual reasons. I realize that this isn't the optimal choice for the most effective build but it is part of the character concept.
That being said I really do want to stick to the concept. I understand that the concept itself isn't the most optimal, however I would like to try to keep the suggestions focused on making this the most optimally effective while keeping within the character concept.
BBT: This would be for that same campaign as my last build post so all normal races are available and many of the less monsterish ones as well. Nothing over CR1. I'm not seeing anything as being better than Human though.
pobbes: You are right on the "effective AC" part except that I can sneak attack multiple targets. You are also correct about needing things to be susceptible to fear. Although out of the things that are susceptible to Sneak Attacks I'm not aware of many that are NOT susceptible to fear. So I don't think that is a big problem in and of itself if you understand my meaning.
I thought about shields. I'll say that I'm only mildly interested in what shields have to offer. I say this because Monks lose their AC bonus when using a shield while Savage Barbarians do not. I don't see that as much of a loss on the Monk side and probably an overall gain. However, it doesn't specifically jive with my concept. But I am willing to entertain ideas. Why? You got something in mind?
Ok, so just going to post a rough build here. Stats are with a 20 point buy.
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 10
Monk levels are all Martial Artist. Barbarian are all Savage Barbarian/Drunken Brute. Rogue is all Thug.
1 - Monk 1: Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Dodge (bonus), Crane Style (1st), Combat Reflexes (Human)
2 - Barbarian 1: Rage, Raging Drunk
3 - Rogue 1: Frightening, Sneak Attack +1d6, Power Attack(3rd)
4 - Monk 2: Evasion, Deflect Arrows (bonus)
5 - Rogue 2: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training, Dazzling Display (5th)
6 - Rogue 3: Sneak Attack +2d6, Brutal Beating
7 - Barbarian 2: Rage Power: Roaring Drunk, Cornugon Smash (7th)
8 - Rogue 4: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9 - Barbarian 3:
...I'm going to have to get back to this later. I have to go right now.
The order of the feats I took is significant though as I can't take combat trick more than once and I want to have it available at level 8 for rogue level 4 so I can get Shatter Defenses at the earliest opportunity. I'll revisit this later.
Hm...BBT. That is interesting. I'll think on that too.
Alright, so I'll have to pass on the Klar from a conceptual standpoint. And honestly I don't see the benefit of using an Armored Kilt over going nude and taking Monk and Savage Barbarian. I know the Kilt can be enchanted but with Monk you can use Monk Robes and Savage Barbarian gets a static increase of +1 AC at 1st level, +2 at 7th, +3 at 9th and keeps going up.
However, taking that single level of Unarmed Fighter is intriguing. The problem is that you do not get the increased unarmed damage that Monks get. I would, however, get to jump right into Crane Wing at first level, which is definitely nice. I just think it is too much to sacrifice for losing Flurry of Blows (which I would use throughout the character's life), Stunning Fist, the increased unarmed damage and Evasion.
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 10
Monk levels are all Martial Artist. Barbarian are all Savage Barbarian/Drunken Brute. Rogue is all Thug.
1 - Monk 1: Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Dodge (bonus), Crane Style (1st), Combat Reflexes (Human)
2 - Barbarian 1: Rage, Raging Drunk
3 - Rogue 1: Frightening, Sneak Attack +1d6, Power Attack (3rd)
4 - Monk 2: Evasion, Deflect Arrows (bonus)
5 - Rogue 2: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training, Dazzling Display (5th)
6 - Rogue 3: Sneak Attack +2d6, Brutal Beating
7 - Barbarian 2: Rage Power: Roaring Drunk, Cornugon Smash (7th), Uncanny Dodge
8 - Rogue 4: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9 - Barbarian 3: Naked Courage, Crane Wing (9th)
10 - Rogue 5: Sneak Attack +3d6
11 - Rogue 6: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense, Crane Riposte (11th)
12 - Rogue 7: Sneak Attack +4d6
13 - Rogue 8: Rogue Talent: Befuddling Strike, Endurance (13th)
14 - Barbarian 4: Rage Power: Liquid Courage
15 - Barbarian 5: Improved Uncanny Dodge, Drunken Brawler (15th)
16 - Barbarian 6: Rage Power: Good for What Ails you
17 - Barbarian 7: Natural Toughness, Diehard (17th)
18 - Rogue 9: Sneak Attack: +5d6
19 - Rogue 10: Advanced Rogue Talent: Opportunist, Deathless Initiate (19th)
20 - Rogue 11: Sneak Attack: +5d6
Alright, thats what I got. Past level 9 or so I get a bit fuzzy on the best feat choices. Prior to that level everything is kinda spoken for and it is hard to change the order due to what is available as Rogue Talents and what needs to be taken as a Combat Trick. The build doesn't hit it's stride until level 8 which is a bit too late for my liking. I don't see a way around it without sacrificing things I'd rather like to keep in the build.
Again, I know his standing AC is a bit low but I'm not sure how I can improve that without drastically changing the build. I don't think it is a major issue though. As I said before we have:
+2 Dex
+2 Wis
+2 Dodge (Savage Barbarian + Dodge Feat)
For a 16 AC by level 9 and its 15 AC before then.
He can choose to use his Crane Style and Fight defensively at level 1, Frightening helps against his Sneak Attack Target at level 3, Deflect Arrows helps against ranged opponents at 4th level and Cornugon Smash starts coming into play at level 7. After that his defenses keep improving with Crane Wing, Offensive Defense, Befuddling Strike, Crane Riposte, Natural Toughness, etc. And this is all before considering equipment.
On the topic of equipment being able to use a Monk's Robe is a big advantage in both offense and defense and will be an important purchase as soon as he can get his hands on one. Aside from that Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, Rose Prism Ioun Stone, etc are all going to be things he is looking for. I plan on having him boost his Str every level but would like to focus on improving mostly his Str and Dex via belts, Con if I can afford it. A headband of Wis will be cheap and helpful for boosting AC and saves.
One thing I considered was dropping a level of Monk to pick up a level in Unarmed fighter. The net change would be dropping Evasion for getting Crane Wing earlier. Basically it is giving up one type of defense for another so it is kinda a toss up.
Anyone have any advice, comments, suggestions or further questioning of my parentage?
Keep your grubby Alchemist suggestions out of this build and put them in this one.
Oracle? Odd. Why?
I seem to recall you posting to my Ninja Grandmaster build thread (Ninja (Scout)/ Monk (Drunken Master, Sensei, Qingong).
Could I possibly inquire why you don't want to use drunken master (and pick up fast drinker for the swift action alcohol imbibing), and free ki from alcohol?
prototype00
Alignment I suspect.
Ah, right, quite so.
prototype00
Yep. Thats why. Read the spoiler text in the first post. I mentioned it there. ;)
I did like your build though, prototype00. Its also likely more effective than mine. I was going for more of the raging drunk fistycuffs type though. Any suggestions?
I'm not seeing the Oracle benefit here. Am I missing something big?
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Well, the spells to pump, Revelations to pump AC, and Revelations that allow you to perform Combat Maneuvers as if your Oracle level were full BAB.
All of you mentally dependent tactics will use charisma. Cuts MAD.
Being able to use other tactics(like dirty trick) to sneak mindless creatures.
Immune to the Fatigued condition.
Just to show that I'm not obstinate I'm totally going to argue with you.
So I think your suggesting to go with Oracle over both Monk and Rogue? That sorta defeats the purpose of the signature abilities of using Cornugon Smash with Shatter Defenses. You know... with no Sneak Attack and all.
Spells don't fit the raging unarmed drunk guy beating your face in concept. The character type I'm thinking of wouldn't think to rely on paltry magic tricks to accomplish what bear fists on faces can do with just fine.
What you present is an interesting concept though. Just not for this build. I know Lame and Wasting can both work great with Barbarians, particularly the Drunken Brute. In fact, I think even picking a Dual Cursed Oracle could be good. Rage Prophet would even be a logical next step. ...just not for this build, ya know?
Hrm. That would be dropping both his number of attacks (Flurry of Blows) and his base damage per attack. He would pick up Crane Wing earlier...I'm just not sure if its worth it.
Hrm. I was so hoping for more input. I'll give this one more attempt at a shameless bump.
Lack of sap adept makes me sad in face. ---> :(