|
So, ignoring any other arguments that could potentially lead to hard feelings and locked threads, I have a question with regards to a PC being an Oracle of an evil deity. Obviously the character cannot be evil, and it's important to make sure the character doesn't skirt the evil line all the time since you don't want to cause inter-party conflict. I figure maxing out bluff is a good way to start, since nothing is saying he needs to be honest about his faith and if he needs some cover he can lie his way through it.
One of the things that I'm specifically wondering is how best to approach the actual goals of the character. He obviously doesn't have a particularly hard time with the more evil nature of his deity (though he wouldn't necessarily fight to forward evil causes).
Does anyone have any experience with this? For reference, Dagon was the choice I was going with.
|
So, ignoring any other arguments that could potentially lead to hard feelings and locked threads, I have a question with regards to a PC being an Oracle of an evil deity. Obviously the character cannot be evil, and it's important to make sure the character doesn't skirt the evil line all the time since you don't want to cause inter-party conflict. I figure maxing out bluff is a good way to start, since nothing is saying he needs to be honest about his faith and if he needs some cover he can lie his way through it.
One of the things that I'm specifically wondering is how best to approach the actual goals of the character. He obviously doesn't have a particularly hard time with the more evil nature of his deity (though he wouldn't necessarily fight to forward evil causes).
Does anyone have any experience with this? For reference, Dagon was the choice I was going with.
Couple of thoughts,
Since it is an Oracle you might not necessarily know from what divine entity or entities your powers come from. That could be a struggle in it self, the character finding out more and more about that aspect of their persona.
Another thing is that you could focus on the less-evil aspects of your diety. Other domains and such.
Nate
NYC Player/GM
|
If you're not going to try to advance your god's goals, then why is your god granting you powers? A person who follows a deity furthers at least one of that god's portfolios. Your question seems contradictory.
Since Oracles require no diety to gain their divine power, it would make sense to not even bother with a diety if you're intending to not further evil goals, and play neutral.
|
|
If you're not going to try to advance your god's goals, then why is your god granting you powers? A person who follows a deity furthers at least one of that god's portfolios. Your question seems contradictory.
Since Oracles require no diety to gain their divine power, it would make sense to not even bother with a diety if you're intending to not further evil goals, and play neutral.
You misunderstand me (I think), I was more saying if my Oracle of Dagon came across a cult of Dagon trying to poison the water supply it's not like he'd high five them and stand back while the party tried to stop them shouting encouraging words at the cultists.
Also, I thought divine spellcasters did actually require a deity. If Oracles do not, that actually makes this whole concept a bit easier.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You misunderstand me (I think), I was more saying if my Oracle of Dagon came across a cult of Dagon trying to poison the water supply it's not like he'd high five them and stand back while the party tried to stop them shouting encouraging words at the cultists.If you're not going to try to advance your god's goals, then why is your god granting you powers? A person who follows a deity furthers at least one of that god's portfolios. Your question seems contradictory.
Since Oracles require no diety to gain their divine power, it would make sense to not even bother with a diety if you're intending to not further evil goals, and play neutral.
Actually, I think *you* misunderstand *him*. He's saying that every deity has multiple goals/agendas in their portfolio. Since you're a neutral PC, just pick a goal or two that aren't evil and help further them. For instance, if memory serves, Asmodeus is (among other things) the deity of contracts. There would be nothing evil about a LN cleric of Asmodeus being all about contracts. So you can fail to further the deity's evil goals while actively pursuing their more neutral goals.
|
|
Oracles dont, I think, Clerics, Paladins, and Inqusitors do.
Personally, I wouldnt see what it would matter if, in the example you gave, anyone knew you worshiped Dagon as well or not. Just because you worship the same deity doesnt mean your goals are all the same. The other players trying to do anything to you just cause you worship the same deity as the bad guys would fall under the DbaJ rule, and the bad guys arent gonna side with you if you are attacking them. :P
On a related note, I can understand wanting to hide who you are worshipping, but a character that DOES have to claim one deity will have to present their holy symbol to cast their spells, which would throw your bluff out the window in most cases. :P
|
|
I don't have my Ipad with me, but if memory serves and someone can feel free to correct me with the guide in front of them. Only Clerics and maybe inquisitors off the top of my head require one. Oracles I'm 99.9% sure do not require one based off the class fluff.
Now for your example, and something like that can and has happened in PFS. I can PM you the adventure if you don't care about spoilers. In that instance as a GM, if you support the Dagon Cult in their Anti-Pathfinder activity. You break a Pathfinder rule and should become unplayable, and if you don't support the cultists you break your faith and should lose your cleric status until you atone. IMO, you shouldn't put yourself in that potential situation to begin with.
|
|
Oracles dont, I think, Clerics, Paladins, and Inqusitors do.Actually, on Golarion (and in PFS), ALL worshipers of a deity MUST be within 1 step of the deity's alignment. (Diagonals count as 2 steps)
It is in the PFS guide 4.1 and is intentional.
I think we're referring to the classes that "must have", as compared to the classes where dieties are "optional". Not that it invalidates what you're saying, but technically if you're playing an "optional" class such as the Oracle then you could be whatever alignment you wanted within PFS rules.
|
|
On a related note, I can understand wanting to hide who you are worshipping, but a character that DOES have to claim one deity will have to present their holy symbol to cast their spells, which would throw your bluff out the window in most cases. :P
I'm getting a straight +14 to bluff (and disguise) at first level, so hey, it's possible.
Actually, I think *you* misunderstand *him*. He's saying that every deity has multiple goals/agendas in their portfolio. Since you're a neutral PC, just pick a goal or two that aren't evil and help further them. For instance, if memory serves, Asmodeus is (among other things) the deity of contracts. There would be nothing evil about a LN cleric of Asmodeus being all about contracts. So you can fail to further the deity's evil goals while actively pursuing their more neutral goals.
That's totally true, I think I made my statement about "not necessarily advancing the deities goals" ambiguous accidentally. Good point about the other domains.
The problem is this is a CE diety .. if you're going to declar yourself as as worshiper of that diety than you'd have to be w/in 1 alignment away which could make your character not elible for pfs based on the alighment
He's chaotic neutral.
IMO, you shouldn't put yourself in that potential situation to begin with.
I'm definitely aware that's a risk, and obviously I'd side with losing cleric status until I atoned (if this was a cleric).
That said, if it is the case that I don't actually need to choose a deity as an Oracle then I don't need to worry about it nearly as much, since straight up having a thing for the Dark Tapestry is actually far more in-line with this character concept.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Oracles dont, I think, Clerics, Paladins, and Inqusitors do.Actually, on Golarion (and in PFS), ALL worshipers of a deity MUST be within 1 step of the deity's alignment. (Diagonals count as 2 steps)
It is in the PFS guide 4.1 and is intentional.
It is also unrelated to the posed question regarding whether or not an oracle needed a deity in the first place. No one was unclear about alignment restrictions if you DO have a deity.
|
|
I think we're referring to the classes that "must have", as compared to the classes where dieties are "optional". Not that it invalidates what you're saying, but technically if you're playing an "optional" class such as the Oracle then you could be whatever alignment you wanted within PFS rules.
This.
hrmm .. prd has him listed as CE
Dagon (Demon Prince of the Sea) CR 27
XP 3,280,000
CE Large
I think what he was saying was that if you have to be, at most, 1 step away from your deity's alignment, that 1 step from CE is CN, which is prefectly legal.
|
Oracles don’t require a deity. Their mystery has its own little mini pantheon that represent the vagueries of the mystery. Those are the deities you receive your powers from, and each power is not necessarily associated with any of those deities.
Just as a fighter could, you could choose to worship any deity you want (within the rules), whether they are part of your Mystery’s mini pantheon or not.
Breaking from the tenets of that deity would not cost you your abilities or spells, just as a Fighter wouldn’t lose the ability to swing their sword.
A cleric, paladin, inquisitor, and druid on the other hand, are completely different.
And while the core rules don’t indicate a specific deity is necessary for a cleric or paladin, PFS rules indicate that you need to pick a specific deity.
|
|
And while the core rules don’t indicate a specific deity is necessary for a cleric or paladin, PFS rules indicate that you need to pick a specific deity.
I think this might have been what was throwing me off, thanks for the clarification. Now I can just be insane without needing to worry about seeming evil!
|
|
A cleric, paladin, inquisitor, and druid on the other hand, are completely different.
And while the core rules don’t indicate a specific deity is necessary for a cleric or paladin, PFS rules indicate that you need to pick a specific deity.
Not to argue, but where is that ruling. I just downloaded the guide on this comp and dug through it, and went through the FAQ. I can't find anything that states that Paladin's need a diety, and can only find info on it for Cleric's.
|
Dan,
People are going off a series of posts from James Jacobs stating that Paladins in Golarion must follow a god. I don't think there's any evidence of that showing up anywhere more official. I do think that somewhere along th eline one of the Campaign Coordinators said it too.
OOOOOOooo
Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
So basically a Paladin can be anything save an Atheist or a non-deity worshipper.
|
|
Dan,
People are going off a series of posts from James Jacobs stating that Paladins in Golarion must follow a god. I don't think there's any evidence of that showing up anywhere more official. I do think that somewhere along th eline one of the Campaign Coordinators said it too.
OOOOOOooo
Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.So basically a Paladin can be anything save an Atheist or a non-deity worshipper.
and be within 1 step of their chosen diety. Ok, that makes sense.
|
|
Talk to Bob Jonquet, he’s the one who has made a point that Paladins shouldn’t need to pick a deity, but PFS rules indicate they should. I don’t know where he found that rule. Might be in the FAQ.
Well, Bob's paladin originally worshiped Cayden too ;). I'm pretty sure he's now a non-sect paladin that gives lip service to Cayden without being a true worshiper.
|
|
Religion: Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Chronicles: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Characters who do not receive powers from a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no deity at all.
The highlighted text I believe is what Bob was always referring to in that a Paladin must choose a deity and they must be within one step. Which means no Paladins of Pharasma or Cayden and no Paladins of just goodness.
|
If you're not going to try to advance your god's goals, then why is your god granting you powers? A person who follows a deity furthers at least one of that god's portfolios. Your question seems contradictory.
I have a Bone Oracle approaching retirement whose title is "Beloved of Zyphus". Now I played it strait, in that she's come to share some of his values (they met at an Opera, in Oppara).
But what if I had played for humor/horror, as in "I brought your dead brother back as a zombie, so you would love me" or "I don't like how that he tried to touch (channel negitive energy)" and have the character seem like she was on the edge of a nervous breakdown.
Yes, the death god loves you...whether you like it or not.
If you think about it, you could come up with some warped variations such as "Lamashtu thinks your good breeding stock" or "Asmodeus will help...so you will oneday give him great victory as you inadvertently betray everything you love."
Hope that helps.
|
I have a Bone Oracle approaching retirement whose title is "Beloved of Zyphus". Now I played it strait, in that she's come to share some of his values (they met at an Opera, in Oppara).
But what if I had played for humor/horror, as in "I brought your dead brother back as a zombie, so you would love me" or "I don't like how that he tried to touch (channel negitive energy)" and have the character seem like she was on the edge of a nervous breakdown.
Yes, the death god loves you...whether you like it or not.
If you think about it, you could come up with some warped variations such as "Lamashtu thinks your good breeding stock" or "Asmodeus will help...so you will oneday give him great victory as you inadvertently betray everything you love."
Hope that helps.
Reminds me of a character concept I have waiting for the opportunity to play. Father Klarkash would be an oracle of one of the Great Old Ones who'd be working for the Silver Crusade "because the voice in his head told him to". The Old Ones are utterly inscrutable, the character would be utterly mad and the Crusade would not want to know, as long as he kept getting results.
|
|
My experience is similar to others who worship an Evil Deity: Find aspects of the deity that aren't blatantly evil and focus on those. This is what has worked well for most Asmodeus worshiping Cheliax characters: Focus on the rule of law, contracts, enforcing order, and natural order being the strong controlling the weak. None of these are, on their face, objectionable concepts (save the last, and only then to specific characters). And all of them can be pursued within the bounds of a PFS table without immediately upsetting every other PC or NPC in earshot.
The joy of an Oracle, of course, is that they didn't ask for any of their powers. That's a big part of the class. (Doesn't mean they don't enjoy it/slowly begin to agree with Dagon on some things).