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In a recent thread (that sort of got derailed), Saint Caleth and I were having an interesting sideline discussion, and I thought I would open it up to a new thread.
After talking about how to identify a race with an Alternate Racial Trait, we sort of came to the conclusion that a Knowledge(Local) check DC10 (on which a PC can Take 10) would be appropriate. All that would identify was the base race, though, and not other things about the character.
Wow ... funny thing ... In looking in the Core Rulebook, I just found that "Identify a creature’s ethnicity or accent" is a DC10 Knowledge(Geography) check. Odd, that.
That is interesting. I should read up on all the knowledges and what exactly they cover. I'd go with Knowledge(Local) since that its what identifies humanoid races.
Yeah, I think that had I not read it, I would've picked (Local), too. It's an interesting distinction that (Geography) specifically says:Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)Obviously the emphasis is mine, but, it's making the distinction between "people", and "humanoids".
I think the difference is that Local can identify the "race" as in species while Geography can identify the "race" as in ethnicity.
Geography tells you that the Sorcerer unfurling his wings before you is from Tianjing (and gives you a huge clue that he is probably celestial). Local tells you that he is human and not assimar or a celestial like you might expect of someone from Tianjing.
So now, my line of reasoning goes toward the distinction between race, ethnicity, and nationality. I think that (Geography)would be used to determine something like what particular form of a race is being seen. For example, Tian-Shu, as opposed to Tian-sing. ... or Hill Dwarf as opposed to Mountain Dwarf; high elf vs. artic elf; etc.
but, I think that (as Saint Caleth said) that it would also include nationality - like the Tian Jing sorcerer above.Any thought on how these apply, and how they can be confused in game-play?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As to confusing them in game play, I'd guess that disguise would oppose it. I mean if I'm playing a human-pretending-to-be-an-aasimar, with maxed out disguise and skill focus disguise, I don't think a DC 10 check should be able to go "Hey, you're a human farm girl from Andoran!"
I'm not sure how much nationality is tied to ethnicity. To use another example, Mayim is a striking woman of Kelish descent. She's also a freed slave and a member of the Taldor faction. She sees herself as a citizen of Taldor. She's a clear example of nationality not being tied to ethnicity. Same question for Andoran or any other ragamuffin filled later.
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As to confusing them in game play, I'd guess that disguise would oppose it. I mean if I'm playing a human-pretending-to-be-an-aasimar, with maxed out disguise and skill focus disguise, I don't think a DC 10 check should be able to go "Hey, you're a human farm girl from Andoran!"
I'm not sure how much nationality is tied to ethnicity. To use another example, Mayim is a striking woman of Kelish descent. She's also a freed slave and a member of the Taldor faction. She sees herself as a citizen of Taldor. She's a clear example of nationality not being tied to ethnicity. Same question for Andoran or any other ragamuffin filled later.
Thankfully, Cheliax keeps its foreigners in check and under "long term permanent employment contracts" to avoid such problems as worrying about if the person next to you is Keleshite or, Asmodeus forbid, an Aasimar. You don't want to hobknob with one of those people.
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As to confusing them in game play, I'd guess that disguise would oppose it. I mean if I'm playing a human-pretending-to-be-an-aasimar, with maxed out disguise and skill focus disguise, I don't think a DC 10 check should be able to go "Hey, you're a human farm girl from Andoran!"
I'm not sure how much nationality is tied to ethnicity. To use another example, Mayim is a striking woman of Kelish descent. She's also a freed slave and a member of the Taldor faction. She sees herself as a citizen of Taldor. She's a clear example of nationality not being tied to ethnicity. Same question for Andoran or any other ragamuffin filled later.
I guess that's kind of what I am going for, I s'pose. It's difficult to infer what a person's nationality is. It's possible to look at their clothing, their manner of speech, their gestures and idiosyncracies ... but, that's cultural, I guess.
As you said, it could be disguised, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. I wonder how it would work in a "spy" situation. If someone is trying to fit in while disguised, could someone make an opposed (Geography)check? Perhaps an opposed (Local) check? Or would they have to make the Perception first, and then (Geography) or (Local) to determine where the person is really from. How would that work with (sub)races?
I would let a Knowledge(Geography) check to identify someone's ethnicity from accent, mannerisms, etc oppose a disguise check in place of perception if the player so desired in a situation where someone was using disguise to pretend to be a different nationality.
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I guess that's kind of what I am going for, I s'pose. It's difficult to infer what a person's nationality is. It's possible to look at their clothing, their manner of speech, their gestures and idiosyncracies ... but, that's cultural, I guess.
As you said, it could be disguised, but that's a whole other kettle of fish. I wonder how it would work in a "spy" situation. If someone is trying to fit in while disguised, could someone make an opposed (Geography)check? Perhaps an opposed (Local) check? Or would they have to make the Perception first, and then (Geography) or (Local) to determine where the person is really from. How would that work with (sub)races?
IMC.
Let's assume the PC is trying to find the spy.
Perception vs disguise to figure out the Kelish noble is 'off'. So the player (and character) now know he's in disguise. If the player is smart, or the GM evil, he knows it might be a 'disguise' to avoid giving tells, or to hide a skin condition so pointing out "Ah hah! The Kelish Ambassador isn't what he seems!" Might be met with "Yes, he's fighting cancer and that's why he's wearing make up, you boorish rube. Thank you for revealing that to everyone!" So he investigates. He might discover:
- Knowlege Local vs disguise to make the connection that the way he greeted the Diva was a method a few years out of date.
- Knowlege Geography vs disguise to notice his enunciation is more Chelaxian than Kelish.
- Diplomacy to catch him in a faux pass that a 'real' Kelish wouldn't fall for.
- Intimidate to try to get him to reveal himself.
While most of these are adversarial, they could also apply to find out more passive information (The Taldan ambassador is actually from the Beardless, and rose through his skill, for example)
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I would let a Knowledge(Geography) check to identify someone's ethnicity from accent, mannerisms, etc oppose a disguise check in place of perception if the player so desired in a situation where someone was using disguise to pretend to be a different nationality.
I think that I would agree with that. Seems reasonable.
What if it were a variant subrace, like Mountain Dwarf as opposed to Hill Dwarf? Would that be an appropriate check, or would that be considered "ethnicity", at all?
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IMC. ... Perception vs disguise to figure out the Kelish noble is 'off'. So the player (and character) now know he's in disguise. If the player is smart, or the GM evil, he knows it might be a 'disguise' to avoid giving tells, or to hide a skin condition so pointing out "Ah hah! The Kelish Ambassador isn't what he seems!" Might be met with "Yes, he's fighting cancer and that's why he's wearing make up, you boorish rube. Thank you for revealing that to everyone!" So he investigates. He might discover:
- Knowlege Local vs disguise to make the connection that the way he greeted the Diva was a method a few years out of date.
- Knowlege Geography vs disguise to notice his enunciation is more Chelaxian than Kelish.
- Diplomacy to catch him in a faux pass that a 'real' Kelish wouldn't fall for.
- Intimidate to try to get him to reveal himself.
While most of these are adversarial, they could also apply to find out more passive information (The Taldan ambassador is actually from the Beardless, and rose through his skill, for example)
Matthew ... those are some really interesting points of how skills may work in PFS. Is this something that you think that most PFS judges would allow?
Anyone: How does one ajudicate the DC's in PFS for this type of thing? Is there a rule of thumb in PFS for how to identify racial characteristics such as the new racial traits and feats and whatnot found in the Advanced Race Guide?
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something to remember would be that to a person in a culture, the clues for someone being "off" are rather plane - but maybe not to someone else.
why I point this out - a Taldon serf would recognize that another serf is "plainly a feriner" when a Cheliaxian scribe with Knowledge Everything +9 would be hard pressed to see it.
If the DC for detecting the spy is a Knowledge greater than 10 (say 15) the serf (with no ranks) can't even roll, but the scribe would make the check right away (taking 10 and having a +6 he gets the DC 15 everytime).So... should the serf get a bonus? be able to roll with a different DC than the scribe? what?
That would be one of the situations where a conditional modifier (actually local) would apply, and give the local serf a bonus to his knowledge check.
Conditional modifiers typically range from -2 to +2, but they can go over, if really applicable.
Besides, if the serf is the town sot, or seriously mentally challenged, then maybe he wouldn't recognize non-local stuff, where the clear-headed visitor might be able to notice it easier. (DTs for a penalty!)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Matthew ... those are some really interesting points of how skills may work in PFS. Is this something that you think that most PFS judges would allow?
Anyone: How does one ajudicate the DC's in PFS for this type of thing? Is there a rule of thumb in PFS for how to identify racial characteristics such as the new racial traits and feats and whatnot found in the Advanced Race Guide?
*shrug* I don't know. I use Golarion ethnicities for 'shorthand' rather than make up new ones or worse use real life examples that would upset people.
I *do* believe it's a limitation of scenario writing. Most missions are distilled into "To find out the spy is the Kelish ambassador, you must make a dc 20 knowlege (local) check" or somesuch. My example above eats a fair amount of word count. Now imagine 10 faction missions where you have to find X in a book, and listing multiple possibilities. The bit above is just a bit of free association. Also not all the players and GMs are familiar with the campaign setting. A player not as familiar might think that Cheliax is a suburb of Kelishite, they kind of sound alike. Now from the storytelling POV, if I was running a 'make a DC 20 knowlege (local) check' type scenario, I'd bend the rules to allow the other skills. Just like I'd bypass the disguise check I mentioned above if the player was specifically focusing on the 'ambassador'. (Though I'd also make a sense motive check for the ambassador to notice being studied)
As an aside, the spy in question doesn't make all the little gaffs that I listed. Rather he just happens to make the one gaff the character picks up on. If no one has knowlege local, his greeting is up to date, if no one has knowlege geography his accent is flawless, etc. He makes the gaffs they have a chance to catch. Likewise, every NPC in the room who has those skills fails the check, because the plot requires it.
I remember reading someone asked JMS how fast the White Star travels in hyperspace. His reply was "At the speed of plot." The ship never arrives early, or late. It arrives exactly when the plot requires it. Same thing for my hypothetical ambassador.