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I'm playing a Paladin with a bonded mount, and trying to decide what feats are best for the mount to take. I thought of a few possible plans so far, but what ideas you might have used, seen, or played with?
Useful Links: Animal Companions, Feats, Feat Tree
- The mount gets a feat at Paladin levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 10, 13, 16, 18.
- Since a Paladin doesn't get a mount until level 5, the first three feats all arrive together.
- I suspect that the mount never gets particularly good at fighting, so I'm more concerned with mobility, survivability, or tricks than with trying to output damage directly from the mount.
Fleet for mobility.
Toughness and saving throw feats for survivability.
Teamwork feats such as Lookout or Paired Opportunist might be handy.
For my Cavalier I have done the following.
1: Power Attack (pretty much a must have no matter what)
2: Improved Overrun
5: Charge Through (which allows bypassing one enemy/ally for charges. Invaluable imo for charge heavy classes like Cavalier).
At 4th level you need to put the Ability Score increase into Int for the mount to qualify for feats like Charge Through.
Thinking the mount does not get good at fighting is a mistake imo. When you are mounted, your mount can attack with you. If you're not charging, you're making full attacks WITH your mount. Right now my mount has an attack bonus +8 (+5 strength +3 BAB) which is basically AS good as my cavalier minus enchantment ability.
It won't fall behind too badly with a 3/4th BAB (technically 3/5 but you get bonuses to STR that boost it up to 3/4 de facto). Especially with feats like Greater Overrun that give free attacks on successful overruns. Your DM might rule that Ride-By-Attack gives a Free Overrun check as part of a charge if you have it. (Mine does)
Personally I am looking right at:
8: Greater Overrun
10: Nimble Moves
13: Acrobatic steps
Although Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps might not be needed depending on how useful Horseshoes of the Zephyr are.
Beyond that, I'm unsure. Dodge and Mobility are safe bets. Make sure to equip your mount with Barding. Light if you care about speed, Medium if you care about armor and cost, Heavy if you care about armor but not cost. If you do that you'll have a very high AC on your horse due to its Natural Armor bonus and Dex Bonus (both of which constantly increase overtime).
Your mount should be more than survivable. My DM hardly targets mine, but that could be different for you. A D8 hit die and 16/20 hit dice is low, but a 17 CON goes a long way, esp if you put an ability score increase into Con.
Fleet for mobility.
Toughness and saving throw feats for survivability.
Teamwork feats such as Lookout or Paired Opportunist might be handy.
One fairly simple option I considered is: Toughness, Run, Fleet, Fleet. . . Adding the saving throw bonus feats sounds like a great idea. Thanks for the suggestion!
I briefly considered teamwork feats, but I don't like having to spend PC feat in order to get the benefit from the mount's feat, and having to have the mount handy to use the PC feat.
Dragon Style, to charge over difficult terrain?
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Dragon Style, to charge over difficult terrain?
Wow. That is stupidly powerful for mounts. Sucks you have to waste a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike which is worthless to mounts, but two feats is WORTH IT for that.
Improved Unarmed Strike isn't completely worthless for mounts.
Also, if going Dragon Style, consider Feral Combat Training.
Considering mounts use natural attacks in lieu of unarmed attacks, I fail to see how the feat benefits mounts.
1: Power Attack (pretty much a must have no matter what)
Thinking the mount does not get good at fighting is a mistake imo. When you are mounted, your mount can attack with you. If you're not charging, you're making full attacks WITH your mount. Right now my mount has an attack bonus +8 (+5 strength +3 BAB) which is basically AS good as my cavalier minus enchantment ability.
It won't fall behind too badly with a 3/4th BAB (technically 3/5 but you get bonuses to STR that boost it up to 3/4 de facto). Especially with feats like Greater Overrun that give free attacks on successful overruns. Your DM might rule that Ride-By-Attack gives a Free Overrun check as part of a charge if you have it. (Mine does)
I looked at the numbers again, and you're right - my mount isn't so bad at attacking. I worry that my mount will rarely get an attack. When I charge (no mount attack) and when my mount is away (no mount attack) so any feats put into mount attacks may go unused. Do you find that your mount gets to attack frequently?
2: Improved Overrun
5: Charge Through (which allows bypassing one enemy/ally for charges. Invaluable imo for charge heavy classes like Cavalier).
These were actually my first thought, and I think it's a really cool plan. Unfortunately, overrunning depends on having the mount make a successful CMB vs the enemy or you get stopped in your tracks. I compared the CMB of my mount to the CMD of likely enemies, and it seems like he'll be about 50% successful. Have you had a better experience than that?
10: Nimble Moves
13: Acrobatic stepsAlthough Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps might not be needed depending on how useful Horseshoes of the Zephyr are.
I considered these as well, but I decided that the Horseshoes of the Zephyr were a better bet. 6,000 gold for immunity to all difficult terrain rather than two feats to cover only 15'.
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Nothing quite like a really strong, large mount getting iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon in addition to its natural attacks.
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Dragon Style, to charge over difficult terrain?
Dragon Style looks outstanding!
- +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects
- ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw
- can charge through squares that contain allies
- add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round
Ignoring difficult terrain is nice, but is available through other routes. Charging through allies is useful and unique. And, to top it all off, a bonus to damage!
I looked at the numbers again, and you're right - my mount isn't so bad at attacking. I worry that my mount will rarely get an attack. When I charge (no mount attack) and when my mount is away (no mount attack) so any feats put into mount attacks may go unused. Do you find that your mount gets to attack frequently?
First off, you and your mount get to attack on a charge. Even if you're wielding a reach weapon. Remember, the mount charges you just get the benefit of the charge by proxy in addition to the mount's charge.
My mount gets to attack frequently. Most of the time I am on my mount (but I am playing the Kingmaker module, which favors mounted combat). Talk with your DM and see how much you will be able to be on your mount.
These were actually my first thought, and I think it's a really cool plan. Unfortunately, overrunning depends on having the mount make a successful CMB vs the enemy or you get stopped in your tracks. I compared the CMB of my mount to the CMD of likely enemies, and it seems like he'll be about 50% successful. Have you had a better experience than that?
Normally I have always made the CMD check against medium opponents. I find it doubtful that Overrun will really work against large opponents though, since they get more bonuses to CMD than smaller opponents. Typically, if it looks like it has a high CMD I generally don't try.
A normal humaniod is relatively easy to overrun. A shambling mound? Maybe on a lucky roll. Typically a medium humanoid has a lower CMD than his AC, but most monsters have a higher CMD than their AC.
You can get more attacks when your BAB gets high enough.Considering mounts use natural attacks in lieu of unarmed attacks, I fail to see how the feat benefits mounts.Improved Unarmed Strike isn't completely worthless for mounts.
Also, if going Dragon Style, consider Feral Combat Training.
Where does it say that?
Unarmed strikes get extra attacks from high BAB, just like any other weapon.
Animal Companions don't have unarmed strikes, they have natural weapons.
All creature with a physical body can make unarmed strikes. This has been gone over. Most creatures don't, because their natural attacks are better.
Okay, I see your point.
Except that that animals have 2 or 3 natural weapons which is much better than a few Unarmed Strikes, even with Improved Unarmed Strike, so I still fail to see how Improved Unarmed Strike is useful to Animal Companions.
Well, let's say you have an animal companion with one natural attack. When their BAB reaches +6, they will still be only able to make one attack. Now, with unarmed strikes, they will get more. Give them a Monk's Robe, and it be even more worthy.
Except that mounts are already able to use their natural weapons for two or three attacks instead and those have better damage die. Not to mention Animal Companions will get Multi-attack as a bonus feat.
For Offense:
Armor Proficiency (light) followed by Martial Weapon Proficiency (armor spikes).Nothing quite like a really strong, large mount getting iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon in addition to its natural attacks.
Armor spikes! I love that idea. Also, my mount happens to be a wolf, so it would look badass in spikes.
For Defense:
Both you and your mount take the Escape Route teamwork feat. That way, while riding, neither of you ever provoke from movement, ever.
While this might be RAW, it's a little too far outside of RAI for me.
Except that mounts are already able to use their natural weapons for two or three attacks instead and those have better damage die. Not to mention Animal Companions will get Multi-attack as a bonus feat.
There is no except. You can use both options. All of the options. Get Multiattack, Improved Unarmed Strike and Feral Combat Training. You get all of your natural attacks including the extra from Multiattack and you get your itterive attacks from your Improved Unarmed Strike.
Or alternatively, you could go the Light Armor Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency: Armor Spikes route that RavingDork suggested and then get your normal natural attacks plus your itterive attacks with your armor spikes.
In other words, it is not an "either" issue. It is a "why not both?" issue. ;)
Blueluck: Watch this movie for inspiration.
...actually, now that I'm thinking of it I should go post this link in another thread here too.
I looked at the numbers again, and you're right - my mount isn't so bad at attacking. I worry that my mount will rarely get an attack. When I charge (no mount attack) and when my mount is away (no mount attack) so any feats put into mount attacks may go unused. Do you find that your mount gets to attack frequently?First off, you and your mount get to attack on a charge. Even if you're wielding a reach weapon. Remember, the mount charges you just get the benefit of the charge by proxy in addition to the mount's charge.
Hmm, I hadn't realized that would work. That makes a huge difference in the number and quality of attacks my mount would get. Thanks for the correction!
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Is your PC a masked little girl?
Sorry, but all I can imagine for your PC now is Princess Mononoke, the Paladin.
Did you just watch that movie or something?
Depending on what material is available, you could also start with
- Toughness
- Dodge
- Mobility
- Armor Proficiency (light)
which gives your mount more survivability (I know, I need it in the games I play).
Depending on play style, the route with Power Attack and Improved Overrun represents an interesting alternaty.
If you're Mononoke Hime, Moro will get a second bite attack at level
9. *winks*
Ruyan.
I recently played a paladin mostly based on the Rumple Minze ads (sword & board blonde on a polar bear). Bears are not on the paladin list, and slightly more powerful than gnomes' ponies, so I didn't build him as a damage monster but instead, as a survivable helper. He took Armor Profiency light and medium, dodge, mobility, sidestep (5' step as an immediate action if missed) and lunge. Lunge is especially good for mounts because it allows them the same reach as a rider with a lance, so they get their attack even when you're getting great charge damage. Also, if you're not currently mounted, they can stand in the second line and still take swings at the enemy.
He rarely hit unless I was sharing a smite with him, but his AC was good enough. He had a Menacing Amulet of Mighty Fists, so we were great flankers (and we got the extra bonus), and if I'd needed the help, he could have assisted me for another +2.
For a wolf... well. It's a shame Improved and Greater Trip require Int 13. Still, when you're smiting, you can probably rack up enough bonuses for the trip to sometimes work (which is great, because it means your second and third attacks will hit). Weapon Focus Bite will help; charging into flank while wearing a menacing amulet will help a lot.
The armor spikes are a great idea -- when you're sharing your smite with him, more attacks are always better. Remember they'll make your natural weapons secondary, though, which lowers your ability to trip. (Also, how do barding spikes work if you're riding him?)
Blueluck: Watch this movie for inspiration.
...actually, now that I'm thinking of it I should go post this link in another thread here too.
Great movie! I'd forgotten about that one.
Here's a video that gives you a good view of the beast.
Here's a photo
Nimble Moves and acrobatic steps are both nice feats for mobility if that's the angle you are playing.