I know that the hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon and I know that it requires a move action to reload this weapon by itself. Taking the rapid reload feat allows you to make this a free action. I have seen a discussion on this stating it still takes 2 hands to reload which makes no sense to me really. Let me go over the mechanics of why this make no sense.
Lets first look at the light crossbow. The light crossbow takes the exact same action as a hand crossbow to reload with or without the rapid reload feat. This weapon is a simple weapon meaning anyone that is proficient with simple weapons are able to use it, which I believe every starting class can use a light crossbow. This weapon does a 1d8 damage with a range of 80 ft. and only costs the player 35 gold. This weapon can be held in one hand with a -2 penalty on attack roll but still requires to hands to reload.
The hand crossbow is a exotic weapon that requires the player to take a feat to even use the weapon unless it comes as a class proficiency i.e. Rogue. Which means just to use the weapon you have to take a feat away from most classes. Weapon is only doing 1d4 damage with a range of only 30 ft. The cost of a standard hand crossbow is 100 gp and still require 2 hands to reload or suffer penalties (Which the book does not state what those penalties are "You may shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with each hand, at no penalty" pg 145 crb).
The hand crossbow damage is 2 die size smaller then the light crossbow, cost is about x3 as much and requires the player to take a feat to use it. The only advantage the this has over the light hand crossbow is that it can be used as a 1h weapon with out any penalties. If a wielder is not able to dual wield with this weapon and reload it, what is the point of this weapon? A hand crossbow is basically have a very bad light crossbow.
In the core rule book it states that the hand crossbow can be reloaded by hand unlike the light crossbow which is a lever. So please tell me why a hand crossbow is even a option if not to be dual wield with another weapon like a melee weapon or another hand crossbow. What makes it a good option to use at all. If their isn't one the I suggest making the weapon a simple weapon and reduce the cost of the item. There is no reason crappier version of a weapon cost so much to use unless it has a reason for being that expensive.
If someone can enlighten me on this reason I would really appreciate it.
How do you propose that it could be reloaded without the use of your hands?
My suggestion: be a Vanaran and use your tail to reload. Problem solved.
Weapon cords let you drop the crossbow and give you 2 free hands to reload.
This would be a good use for the alchemists third arm.
I think the reason to use it would be an opening volley from a rogue: 2 ranged sneak attacks kind of hurt.
It can be reload with the other hand while still holding the other crossbow. Kinda like holding your keys in one hand and still able to dial a number on your fold you can still hold something and do something with the fingers in you hand. The bridge of you palm and thumb is actually really strong in keeping hold of things. You can hold a 2 lbs item fairly easily that way with only using up your index finger and your thumb leaving you middle, ring and pinking for other actions. This is what having dexterity is all about.
weapon cords fix this problem, turns your rounds into this:
Round 1
Attack with both xbows
Free action drop xbow#2
Free action reload xbow#1
Free action Drop xbow#1
Swift action pickup xbow#2
Free action reload xbow#2
Round 2
Swift action pickup xbow#1
Attack with both xbows
Free action drop xbow#2
Free action reload xbow#1
Round 3
attack with xbow#1
free action reload xbow#1
free action drop xbow#1
swift action pickup xbow#2
free action reload xbow#2
attack with xbow#2
free action reload xbow#2
beyond round 3 should be able to bounce between which crossbow is dropped at the end of the round, leaving you with 1 loaded xbow in your hand for the next round while still being able to attack with both.
Free actions can be arbitrarily limited by the DM. This seems like a likely occurrence with the suggested activity, IMO.
so letting someone shoot 2 crossbows in a round throws the game out of balance? If I had a DM do that I would have some serious reservations about their game knowledge.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Rule 0 applies here just as much as any other "GM limitations" set out in the book. Is it fun for him to do? Does it affect my game negatively? Does he have the proper items/feats to do what he wants to do? If all of those came up as yes and a DM said no I would think his rules knowledge is poor because he believes that is overpowered. and then I would laugh as i hit for 4x the damage my crossbow friend did with a falchion.
...thus negating the need for a Repeating Crossbow? Isn't that kinda the point of it?
Let me ask this a different way: If you are allowing people to full attack with Light Crossbows in each hand then what advantage does the Repeating Light Crossbow give?
Matthias: You seem to think I have a personal stake in this discussion. I do not. I am simply pointing out that there are a fair number of groups and DMs who would not find it fun and would think it would affect the game negatively and would thus disallow it. And they would be going completely by RAW.
This is a rules question, right? Cause that is what I was answering. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they have poor rules knowledge. And just because a DM would rule against what you are proposing doesn't mean they think it is overpowered.
My only questions so from all the responses is still what is the penalty for reloading when dual wielding them. It states that "You may shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with each hand, at no penalty" but what is the penalty?
The penalty is -2 if you are firing with one hand on top of any two weapon fighting penalties.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
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I know that the hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon and I know that it requires a move action to reload this weapon by itself. Taking the rapid reload feat allows you to make this a free action. I have seen a discussion on this stating it still takes 2 hands to reload which makes no sense to me really. Let me go over the mechanics of why this make no sense.
The cost of a standard hand crossbow is 100 gp and still require 2 hands to reload or suffer penalties (Which the book does not state what those penalties are "You may shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with each hand, at no penalty" pg 145 crb).
Other crossbows have a penalty to attack with only one hand. The light crossbow does not.
The hand crossbow damage is 2 die size smaller then the light crossbow, cost is about x3 as much and requires the player to take a feat to use it. The only advantage the this has over the light hand crossbow is that it can be used as a 1h weapon with out any penalties. If a wielder is not able to dual wield with this weapon and reload it, what is the point of this weapon? A hand crossbow is basically have a very bad light crossbow.
It is a fire and drop weapon. A rogue can fire to the limit of sneak range of 30 feet with no penalty either for range or for firing a crossbow with one hand. Rogues don't get iterative attacks until 8th level. Low level rogues can use hand crossbows to get two attacks in the first round of combat with sneak attack and without the penalty that would come from other crossbows. He can then rearm in subsequent rounds with other weapons. A rogue's damage is largely based on sneak attack dice, so the better chance to hit is a much better trade off to him than the inherent damage dice of the weapon.
Rogues typically don't have the feats to invest in ranged attack feats unless all they do is ranged. This gives them an option to open combat with sneak attacks from hand crossbows before the battlefield is cluttered with cover conditions and firing into melee penalties.
In the core rule book it states that the hand crossbow can be reloaded by hand unlike the light crossbow which is a lever. So please tell me why a hand crossbow is even a option if not to be dual wield with another weapon like a melee weapon or another hand crossbow. What makes it a good option to use at all. If their isn't one the I suggest making the weapon a simple weapon and reduce the cost of the item. There is no reason crappier version of a weapon cost so much to use unless it has a reason for being that expensive.
Other than the fact that the weapon does have its role, the argument that you've provided is one based on the gamist end of the gamist-to-reality spectrum. The game itself does not lie at that far end of the spectrum. The weapon requires two hands to reload because the basic physiological requirements to hold and pull back the string with sufficient force for a weapon that can shoot a bolt 300 feet is something that requires two hands.
If someone can enlighten me on this reason I would really appreciate it.
I've tried. It is a weapon that appeals to rogues, who are likely the only character to use them given the proficiency type. They are also the only ones to really benefit from it, so the exotic category has a tendency to make it so that it isn't a trap for other character builds. It appeals to a style of play that enjoys tactical choices, including varied modes of attack rather than a character that is built for just melee or just ranged.
If you try to make it into something else, you well may be disappointed. Frustration very often is the result of a conflict between expectations and what is actually happening. Using it as designed works fine. Wanting it to be a sole source of damage dealing as a ranged character is not using it as designed, so will result in frustration.
If this discussion doesn't sway you...don't use it. Not using an option that you think is a bad choice should be satisfying in its own right. Alternately, if your view of how it should work is different....change it within your game to work the way you want it to.
Edit: Corrected errors in original regarding TWF penalties w/hand crossbow.
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To be honest hand crossbows are terrible even for rogues since you can't sneak attack unless it's the first round and you go first and you're already within 30ft or invis. to make a full attack action in order to get both shots off.
Yep, it's situational. It's also the only ranged weapon in the core rules that a rogue has with wich he can get off two sneak attacks in the first round from range at a BAB of +5 or lower without either range penalties or penalties for using a crossbow one handed.
A rogue is better off concentrating on throwing daggers which benefit from feats and what not that he already wants to take and can increase in shots per round if he's headed down the twfing tree. Really you're usually better off just hedging your bets on flanking or feinting and ignoring the making an easy target of yourself section of things.
I have a low level halfling rogue. He has Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting and no other feats at this time. He has a +6 Init (18 Dex and Reactionary trait); he often goes first in Init. At higher level, he might choose different tactics. At this stage of the game, it doesn't get much better, and I enjoy the small tactical decisions.
Even at high level, win initiative and you can get your interative attacks with quick draw (though admittedly I can figure out how to carry 4 of them, but 6 seems hard-any ideas?). If you lose initiative you drop them and draw other weapons and move.