The BAB is the trade off for being a rogue and not a fighter, but hypothetically speaking, could you give up sneak attack in exchange for archery feats, and if so, how many and when?
While this might not be helpful, my initial thought is: Why play a rogue if you remove sneak attack?
As far as I can see it, the ranger can pull most of it off more easily:
- Skill-monkey: The ranger get 2 less skill points. Not a big deal when he can afford using the favored class bonus to get another.
- Trapster: Both the Urban Ranger and the Trapper gets trapfinding and disable device, so they'll do it as well as a rogue.
- Sneakster: While some of the rogue tricks allow moving around more sneakily, the ranger is going to be more stealthy in his favored terrain/community.
- Small weird tricks: That is the skirmisher for you, getting his hunters tricks that'll match the rogue's tricks.
The only thing the ranger don't get to do, is the nice Uncanny Dodge and the sweet Evasions.
Peter, I made a sneak attack replacement to solve this issue. I can't properly link right now but here it is:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4tk6?My-replacement-for-Sneak-Attack-allowing-f or
I don't think swapping sneak attack for feats is going to help the rogue out all that much in combat. Sneak attack is pretty much the rogue's combat "thing", by giving him combat feats instead, you'd just be making him a less combat savvy fighter, albeit with more out of combat options. If that is what you want, I don't think that route will break anything, but it won't make him any more impressive in a combat role.
(Jeez, could I say "combat" any more.)
In theory a lot or ranks in stealth + the halfling trick that makes sniping a -10 (instead of -20) and the rogue talent that furthere reduces it to -0 could work for a sniper rogue. Add a level of shadow dancer and you're hiding in plain sight and sniping all day long. Haven't playtested one, but it could work in theory.
The only thing the ranger don't get to do, is the nice Uncanny Dodge and the sweet Evasions.
Rangers DO get Evasion (and even Improved Evasion.), it's just at later levels.
As for OP, I don't see why you couldn't play a Rogue archer.
*Various Tricks to extend Sneak Attack Range
*Sniper Archetype to further increase range (and halve range penalties :D)
*When you can get one, Sniper Goggles let's you make a Sneak attack at ANY RANGE! Within 30 feet? Get +2 to damage for each sneak attack die anyways.
No need to give up anything for it (except Trapsense and something else I didn't see).
Linky for those that want to see.
The issue isn't the range. The issue is getting the situations at range when the enemy is flat-footed all while getting some sort of respectable damage.
Open Design's Spell-less Ranger gets sneak attack (called "Stealth Attack") against favored enemies AND/OR while in favored terrain (though it doesn't double if both conditions are met, just in case that thought occurred to anyone).
They also get ranger talents, one of which increases the stealth attack range.
Not that it helps with getting an enemy flat-footed or anything. I really like Cheapy's idea of "weakening" SA's damage, but increasing the number of qualifiers.
@Foghammer:
That stealth attack seems a little unbalanced; rangers already get a damage bonus to favored enemies, and if you pick the right favored terrains, you will always get the sneak attack damage. That only further alienates the rogue. (Fits flavor-wise though.)
@Foghammer:
That stealth attack seems a little unbalanced; rangers already get a damage bonus to favored enemies, and if you pick the right favored terrains, you will always get the sneak attack damage. That only further alienates the rogue. (Fits flavor-wise though.)
You won't "always" get it, especially if using a ranged weapon. You still have to meet the conditions for sneak attack as normal, you just have to meet the ADDITIONAL requirements. (Guess I could have been more clear about that in my last post.) Meeting the conditions for sneak attack are not easy anyway unless you have a flanking buddy. Catching a foe flat-footed at range... short of having an ally set that up for you, I'm at a loss for ideas.
Then there are foes with uncanny dodge, foes that have all-around vision, immune to precision damage, yadda yadda yadda...
It's a buff to be sure (the ranger gives up spells, remember), but not broken. I'm playing one now and since I hit second level I've only gotten to use it once.
@Foghammer:
Oh ok, I misinterpreted that as INSTEAD of the usual sneak attack qualifiers.
Haha, now it seems too weak.
You meant they get ROGUE talents in your earlier post right? That seems like a fairly fair swap, if at 4th level and every two thereafter. I drafted an archetype that did just that, actually. Ranger spells are mostly use to buff and activate wands with anyway so I think it's all right to swap those for the minor bonuses that rogue talents provide. Not sure that allowing advanced rogue talents would be appropriate though.
|
Take Vanishing ninja trick and the Invisible Blade Ninja trick at 10th level(improved invisibility) and purchase Snipers Goggles. Carry Scrolls of Improved Invisibility as back up. Fire arrows from 200 feet away, chortle as your enemies die clueless.
Sniper Archetype is good too, take a level of Urban ranger to get trapfinding.
Shadow Dancer takes too many feats. You will still need PB shot, Precice shot and Rapid shot.
Choose either Halfling for the +10 sniper bonus and +4 stealth. For flavor, take warslinger instead. (though not as good) or
Choose Elf for Longbow proficiency, better damage when sneak attack is not available
Bleeding attack rogue talent is a must. Monsters with low intelligence will bleed out looking for you. Intelligent creatures will have to waste actions performing first aid.
At 7th level, ask the party wizard to learn Improved invisibility. Return the favor by protecting him.
Crap, I think I have my next character.
Where is improved invisibility from? Did you mean greater invisibility?