Does polymorph allow me to make more attks than my BaB?


Rules Questions


Ex.

If i am a lvl 2 rogue, with a BaB of +1, and i am polymorphed into an octupus, do i now have 8 tentacle and 1 bite attacks on a Full-attack, each with sneak attack damage?

My DM states that I gain access to the natural attacks of any polymorphed form, but that does not grant me that number of attacks per round.

Any help / info would be appreciated


You could make as many natural attacks as the creature you turned into has. Base attack bonus does NOT have any say over how many natural attacks you get to make. It only deals with the bonus to all the attacks. So if an octopus has 8 tentacles and a bite, a full attack would include 9 attacks. I'm pretty sure they don't have 9 attacks though.

Further, you lose sneak attack after the first attack unless you have greater invisibility or you are flanking.

Grand Lodge

Your GM knows what's best for your game. RAW, you attack once with each of your natural attacks per round and sneak attack with every attack that qualifies (but Cheapy's comment applies if your sneak attack is due to stealth or invisibility).

Note that:


  • the octopus has two natural attacks. Its "tentacles" attack doesn't do any damage. Perhaps you wanted to polymorph to a giant octopus.
  • the octopus and giant octopus have the aquatic subtype. This means they cannot breathe air.


thank you guys for your help =)


I am the GM John referenced in this post, and i had some questions regarding my reasoning of the spell.

The concept of allowing all natural attacks that can be made, both primary and secondary, during a full-attack is correct under the guidelines of the Universal Monster Rules, but those rules only apply to monsters and not Player Characters.

The polymorph function does not disavow the status of PC, and does not refer to using the UMR when interpreting the effects of the spell. It states "you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus".

For a PC, base attack bonus dictates the + to hit and number of attacks available during a full-attack.

If the polymorphed form allows the player to gain a list of attacks such as /Bite, 4 Claws, Tail Sweep / and they have the requisite number of attacks available from their Bab, then all is fair game, following the rules of combat as written for PCs. If they do not have the number of attacks for all six, the option of any natural attack still exists as conferred by the spell.

I can not find a specific reference in the spell or the transmutation function that explicitly states the player is allowed to make more attacks in a round than is otherwise ordinary.


Your BAB reference only applies to attacks made with manufactured weapons. Iterative attacks have no bearing or connection to natural attacks sir.

Under the Transmutation(polymorph) subschool area in the magic section:

"In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."

that means that you get the attacks of the creature. 1 horn, or 8 tentacles or what have you. You determine your attack bonus by taking your own BAB, not the critters, and adding your own STR (or dex etc).

Then you have Natural Attacks under universal monster rules:

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."

This is basically the reverse of what you were thinking. A being forfits a natural attack to attack with a weapon (and use iterative attacks from BAB)

I hope that helps a little bit?


The Universal Monster Rules are used by everyone, even PCs when they gain any abilities listed in there. This is the intent of the rules.

Natural attacks that PCs can get are very powerful, as they let them get past the normal attacks they'd usually get, as well as them being all at higher bonus to-hit (compared to iterative attacks).


More information can be found in the Combat chapter, under Standard attacks, under the heading "Natural Attacks".

I'll copy it here for ease, but that's how you'll find it:

Quote:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

From this, we see that natural attacks are not bound by the higher base attack bonus. You also get the additional attacks listed in the race or ability that grants the attack.


This is another useful thread where one of the main designers of the Pathfinder game, Sean K. Reynolds, explains the Feral Mutagen class feature that the alchemist player class has.


Rathendar wrote:
Your BAB reference only applies to attacks made with manufactured weapons. Iterative attacks have no bearing or connection to natural attacks sir.

Where does it state this in the core rules? Under unarmed attacks it says "a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks)."

Under the natural attack listing in the UMR, there is nothing to suggest that Bab and number of attacks are exclusive from each other.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Natural-Attacks

I would like to note i greatly appreciate your response, along with any other comments you may have to help me adjucate the situation.


Thank you both Cheapy and Rathendar for helping me clarify my misinterpretation.


No problem! If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Pathfinder is a game where the rules about topics are spread far and wide, probably due to its goal of backwards compatibility with D&D 3.5.

For example, a rogue's sneak attack damage is "precision damage", but it is not defined as such in the ability. It is only elsewhere where it actually is defined as "precision damage". It's kind of crazy in that way.

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