Spear and shield, fighter. Feels like I'm missing something.

[Nenyond]

Alright, I'm actually at a loss here. I wanted to put together a decent playable spear fighter to make use of reach. Playing with an attempt at Greek Hoplites. Trying not to go super optimized, because, well, it won't happen with spears.

I'm struggling with feat selection for some reason. Here's the build thus far.

Level 6 Fighter [C/APG/UC/UM)

Archetype: Phalanx Fighter

Traits:Militia Veteran
Dirty Fighter

20 point build
Str:18 (16+2 Human)
Dex:14 (13+1 level increase)
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:10
Cha:9

Skills: Intimidate +8(6+3-1)
Climb +13(6+4+3)
Swim +13(6+4+3)
Profession: militia/guard +10(6+3+1)

Feats:
human:
CL1:
F1:
F2:
CL3:
F4:
CL5:
F6:

Equipment:
+1 Keen Longpear (+6/+1bab,+4str,+1enh,+1foc[+12/+8]1d8+7)
Masterworked Shortsword
+1 Bashing Large Metal Shield
Masterworked Breastplate
2 3rd level Enlarge potions
2 3rd level Bull's Strength potions
2 3rd level Bear's Endurance potions

I was thinking something along the lines of

Human: Combat Expertise
CL1: Combat Reflexes
F1: Weapon Focus: Longspear
F2: Improved Shield Bash
CL3: Power Attack
F4: Weapon Specialization: Longspear
CL5: Improved Reposition
F6: Improved Dirty Trick

I'm thinking of the feat slots going out like this, going forward.

CL7: Quick Reposition
F8: Improved Trip
CL9: Critical Focus
F10: Vital Strike
CL11: Bleeding Critical
F12: Greater Weapon Specialization: Longspear
CL13: Pin Down
F14: Improved Vital Strike
CL15: Greater Dirty Trick
F16: Quick Dirty Trick
CL17: Greater Vital Strike
F18: Impaling Critical
CL19: Improved Impaling Critical
F20: Skill focus or a dump feat. I have no idea.

I'm probably going for using the low bab on the 5' square bash attack to be a reposition or trick. step back, FA, then reposition again. Always working to keep the enemy on the tip of the spear. But the shield doles out as much damage as the spear, so it's trivial. Until the Vital Strikes come out later.

So what I'm missing, is how far behind the curve is this in regards to the average DPR from an optimized level 6 fighter? and/or any suggestions to maybe squeeze a little more out of this build, without a complete optimization.

[cranewings]

I run a fairly difficult game with a lot of high CR opponents. I don't know what your game is like, but in mine, usually the shielded low DPR characters are the only ones to make it through. All the high DPR characters get killed at some point.

The higher AC for having a shield is a really big advantage. Don't just think about the damage curve. If left alone, your fighter will kill bad guys.

I don't think his problem is damage. I think it is versatility. I think you should do something with either improving his movement or giving him a ranged attack.

[proftobe]

1. I agree with cranewings the shields dpr isn't going to help much. Just let it be a shield.

2. don't forget the fighter's most powerful ability. He can re-train his bonus feats. The ability to re-position while neat really depends on what the rest of the party is doing while you're moving that guy around and most of the time moving the guy around isn't a winning proposition. Unfortunately the game rewards just hitting him a whole lot more. Maybe pick up cleave unless your dm is a real jerk about encounters and then later re-train it away.

3. The vital strike feat line sucks. You can't combine it with anything and most of the time you'd do more damage with regular attacks because of static bonuses.

4. A great trick at mid level is to combine whirlwind attack with lunge allowing you to hit everyone in 10 feet of your character.

remember to re-train a lot of combat feats are great at low level and suck at high level and vice versa.

[pobbes]

I think I would take a few more shield feats, most notably shield slam so you can bullrush opponents at the 5' range back to the 10' range of your longspear. I like the Quick reposition, but I don't understand the greater dirty trick maneuver. You can't use it at the ten foot which is your ideal distance away. I would go for imp./grt bullrush to grant your allies some AoOs while maintaining your ideal distance.

Like cranewings says, I would almost rather see a shielded fighter archetype spear fighter who switch hits the spears as both melee and thrown weapons, but I think that may just be personal preference on my part.

[wraithstrike]

If you are going sword and board then you might want to go TWF and take the shield feats to boost your damage. At higher(starts around level 10) levels it will be difficult to affect monsters with CMB based attacks.

Even if the GM uses humanoids instead of monsters you can boost your DPR by going with TWF. By focusing on all the CMB based tricks you will have a lower DPR so the question is are these "trick" for flavor or mechanical effectiveness? If it is flavor, how much are you willing to sacrifice to do more damage?

I would probably look at that vital strike feats also as being droppable if you do decide to go TWF.

I would also look at Stunning Critical. It is better than the impaling critical line.

Dazing Assault from the APG is also a nice feat.

[PSY850]

A random question/thought that this brought up because it sounds like a fun character concept to play. Is there a class feature or feat around somewhere that lets you "choke up" on a reach weapon to use it against foes adjacent to you?

Asta
PSY

[wraithstrike]

There is. The polearm(fighter archetype) has it.

[Nenyond]

cranewings wrote:

I don't think his problem is damage. I think it is versatility. I think you should do something with either improving his movement or giving him a ranged attack.

I was tempted to take spears so as to be able to pump out throw attacks. But I like the idea of playing Reach/enlarged reach more. And with the shield/medium sized spear, it'd be a full round action without feat investiture to switch hit for ranged.

proftobe wrote:

I agree with cranewings the shields dpr isn't going to help much. Just let it be a shield.

With the Improved bash feat, the shield is still a shield, and a martial weapon that covers the reach gap of the long spear. No fuss with Imp Unarmed, or spiked gauntlets. Still get the +3AC from the shield, and can whollop at normal melee range for 1d8 thanks to the bashing enhancement.

proftobe wrote:

The vital strike feat line sucks. You can't combine it with anything and most of the time you'd do more damage with regular attacks because of static bonuses.

Then go for more of the cleave, Cleave CMB line?

pobbes wrote:

but I don't understand the greater dirty trick maneuver. You can't use it at the ten foot...

Why not? I don't see anything preventing it. And if so, then use the dirty tricks to get back to that optimum spear range.

wraithstrike wrote:

I would probably look at that vital strike feats also as being droppable if you do decide to go TWF.

I would also look at Stunning Critical. It is better than the impaling critical line.

Dazing Assault from the APG is also a nice feat.

I looked at TWF but figured it would be a wasted feat tree, since at no point would I conceivably be in a situation where using both a shield bash and a spear thrust would be possible. I must have overlooked Dazing Assault, thank you.

psy850 wrote:

Is there a class feature or feat around somewhere that lets you "choke up" on a reach weapon

Yes, the Polearm fighter archetype can do it at level 2, IIRC. I went for the Phalanx fighter to get the 'when using a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one handed weapon.'

[wraithstrike]

You could use Lunge to reach them with the shield.

[Slaunyeh]

For comparison, this is a first draft of a phalanx fighter I whipped up a while ago. I think it was 25 point buy. The feats at the end of the list are either "stuff I'd like to make room for", or "stuff I need to pick up when I qualify for it." This includes a couple of teamwork feats, in case I could bully someone else into also playing a similar concept. :)

I also went with the shield bashing line, in case someone gets inside your reach, and shield slam to push them back into reach of your spear for free. I don't know how great it will work in practice though, haven't had a chance to play it yet.

Male human phalanx soldier 5
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
--Defense--------------------------------
AC 22, touch 13 flat-footed 19 (+3 Dex, +6 armor, +3 shield)
hp 54 (5 HD; 5d10+15+5)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +1
Defensive Abilities
--Offense--------------------------------
Spd 30ft.
Melee mwk longspear +10 (1d8+4/x3),
or shield bash +10 (1d6+2/x2),
or gladius +10 (1d6+4/19-20)
Special Attacks power attack (-2 hit/+4 dmg)
--Statistics-----------------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +9 (+11 bull rush); CMD 22 (23 vs overrun, trip; 25 vs bull rush)
Feats Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Toughness, Shield Wall, Improved Bull Rush (Shield Slam(6th), Greater Shield Focus(8th), Shield Master(11th), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Double Slice, Coordinated Defense, Shielded Caster)
Skills <stuff>
Languages <stuff>
Gear masterwork breastplate, masterwork longspear, masterwork heavy spiked shield, masterwork gladius
Special stand firm +1, phalanx fighting, ready pike +1