There is an awful lot of talk on the boards about how to make individual characters min-maxed, self-sufficient, all-powerful, etc.
I am starting this thread to raise the bar. In what ways can you think of building a character that takes a basic role (Rouge, Cleric, Arcane Caster, Paladin, whatever) and makes them more about boosting the whole party than the player individually.
I realize the challenge is significantly harder in that it brings in nebulous factors like the various skills and feats of the other classes in the group, if so then apply your skills/wisdom in build creation towards benefitting in a more general sense, but if a certain type of role in another class is popular, you can mention a build that supports "That" kind of character.
If you absolutely need parameters, say a party is 1 rogue type, 1 divine caster, 1 arcane caster, 2 frontline fighters (Fighters, barbarians, paladins, monks of any mix)
The gauntlet is dropped. I've been watching who the min/maxers in the forum are, and I'm curious about who'll post and who might not.
A nicely built PF Bard can give the party boosts in and out of combat; a lot of people pooh-pooh the Bard's Inspire Competence because it can't help the Bard itself, but that contributes to making everyone else better.
In combat, Discordant Voice gives everyone +1d6 sonic damage, and relatively few critters have sonic resistances. Then there's all the usual spell buffs (Haste), roll-boosting spells (avoid failing more often), enemy-nerfing spells (slow), enemy-obstructing spells, and the like. Relatively few direct damage spells compared to other casters but a lot of party-enhancing and enemy-nerfing capabilities.
Probably other party-force-multiplier classes can provide greater specific spikes, but the bonuses Bards can grant are well-rounded: they can be applied to the full range of situations a party might face, both in and beyond combat.
(Are you looking for full builds? I prolly can't attempt to post a full build till the weekend. Also, my initial builds are rarely the most optimal).
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I'll go with the party we're putting together for our upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 20
Taking Fey Foundling and the elven favored class option, this character maximizes the effectiveness of the Lay on Hands ability. She serves as the party leader and part-time face.
Human Barbarian (Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager) 2 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 18
One of a brother/sister team and graduate of a special combat school, he wields a Fauchard to devastating effect.
Human Barbarian (Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager) 2 / Fighter (Archer) 18
The ranged counterpart to her brother and graduate of the same specialized combat school.
Half-Elven Summoner (Master Summoner) 20
With a small-sized eidolon optimized as the party's scout and an entire host of summoned creatures capable of dealing with any combat scenario.
Halfling Bard (Archivist) 18 / Halfling Opportunist 2
The party's other face, buffer, healer and trap-finder.
The party was desgined to be fun and incredibly effective from level 1, not an optimized level 20 munchkin group. All have tremendous versatility and compliment one another's skill sets without needlessly overlapping. We're really looking forward to it.
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Off the top of my head, this seems like a really powerful party:
Rogue type - Vivisectionist Alchemist. Uses the discovery that lets him give his extracts to teammates before battle, so that with warning time, the whole team can be invisible/blurred/beast shaped/whatever. In battle, flanks with one of the frontliners to deal massive sneak attack damage. Also a skill monkey and the party's scout.
Divine caster - Hard to say, I'm not as experienced with divine caster builds. Maybe a cleric that can cast Enlarge Person on the frontline fighters and help buff/heal the party. Maybe make him an archer as well, or a blaster - someone that can help pick off people at range. This guy is responsible for protecting the party from status ailments, poisons, and other bits of nastiness, and for reviving the dead.
Arcane caster - Battlefield control wizard, a la Treantmonk's guide. Summons powerful support creatures (in SMVI there's an azata with bard levels, for example) and uses walls, pits, clouds, etc. to funnel the enemies and reduce their terrain advantage. He also protects the party from ranged attacks, and can help mobility as well.
Frontline Fighter 1 - Paladin with a reach weapon and the Combat Reflexes setup (including Combat Patrol and Stand Still). One of the casters uses Enlarge Person on him, and he uses Lay on Hands and Combat Patrol to heal people and protect the vulnerable members of the party, while covering a HUGE range with his reach weapon. Makes a good party face, too.
Frontline Fighter 2 - RAGELANCEPOUNCE antimagic Barbarian. High hit points, great saves; this guy gets buffed by the casters (Fly seems good here) and proceeds to deal undecent amounts of damage to the enemies. If there are any casters in the opposing party, he wrecks them first.
So there you go. Two buffers (alchemist and cleric), two healers (cleric and paladin), two damage dealers (alchemist and barbarian, plus Paladin if he smites), and two controllers (wizard and paladin). It's not unbeatable, but it should be able to handle a lot of punishment and take on a wide variety of threats.
The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.
The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.
I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
The party i'm helping put together right now looks like it will be pretty sweet, haven't played it yet but we'll see...
Frontline: Half-Orc Paladin with Oath of Vengeance and Oath against Fiends - breaks things in combat, and can intimidate to help with party face.
Divine Caster: The face, Aasimar Oracle of the Dark Tapestry (worships Yog-sothoth no less...) excellent face skills, can heal, and uses spells like Liberating Command to help other party members get out of sticky situations.
Arcane Caster: Tiefling Sorcerer (Sage/Primal Earth crossblooded) covers all the area damage, has all the relevant knowledge skills.
Rogue Type: Half-Elf Synthesist. Has all the sneaking/spotting/device disabling covered, with excellent saves and AC to back it up (fail to disable, just walk right into it)
It looks like it is going to be a very balanced party, the characters are all statted out to be pretty good at helping with most different things...
Is your GM planning supplmental materials and adventures? Because I ended my Rise of the Runelords campaign with my PCs at 15th or so level.I'll go with the party we're putting together for our upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 20
No - characters are just pre-planned to completion.
(Are you looking for full builds? I prolly can't attempt to post a full build till the weekend. Also, my initial builds are rarely the most optimal).
I'll never ask for more than you'd freely give. I'm EXTREMELY new to pathfinder so I can tell you two things: I'm paying REALLY good attention, and I'm REALLY appreciative. That being said, who better to share your wisdom with in a forum? :D
Even a link to existing resources I might not have found would be prized, but if you are willing to give explicit examples (either choices that synergies or full or even quasi-full builds, It will go MILES to making me separately competent by reverse-engineering and deconstruction.)
Bards break adventuring parties.
That is vastly divergent from the former poster... care to share why you think so?
Divine caster - Hard to say, I'm not as experienced with divine caster builds. Maybe a cleric that can cast Enlarge Person on the frontline fighters and help buff/heal the party. Maybe make him an archer as well, or a blaster - someone that can help pick off people at range. This guy is responsible for protecting the party from status ailments, poisons, and other bits of nastiness, and for reviving the dead.
Which divine casters can cast enlarge person?
A nicely built PF Bard can give the party boosts in and out of combat; a lot of people pooh-pooh the Bard's Inspire Competence because it can't help the Bard itself, but that contributes to making everyone else better.
You actually count as your own ally. So yes the bard can inspire his own courage. Been like that for a while now.
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Ah, I'm always hearing things about the Growth domain - perhaps that's just for the cleric alone. Either way, the Alchemist or the Wizard can enlarge people, too, so maybe just disregard that.
Actually, if the Paladin can cover healing people AND removing debuffs (perhaps by filling most of his spell slots with Restoration, or improving his Lay on Hands) a bard could replace the divine caster admirably.
Arcane Caster: Tiefling Sorcerer (Sage/Primal Earth crossblooded) covers all the area damage, has all the relevant knowledge skills.
What do you consider the relevant knowledge skills? What are the irrelevant ones!?
Straight up bard with the master performer and grandmaster performer feat, as long as at least two other party members are melee focused.
The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
The day they decide to give Bards 9th level spells I'll believe you.
I'll never ask for more than you'd freely give. I'm EXTREMELY new to pathfinder so I can tell you two things.I'm fairly newb to PF, but quite familiar with it's ancestor. The differences & nuances still trip me up some.
I know the general rule is you count as your own ally,* but I was going off the description here:You actually count as your own ally. So yes the bard can inspire his own courage. Been like that for a while now.A nicely built PF Bard can give the party boosts in and out of combat; a lot of people pooh-pooh the Bard's Inspire Competence because it can't help the Bard itself, but that contributes to making everyone else better.
Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear the bard’s performance. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the bard has attained beyond 3rd (+3 at 7th, +4 at 11th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 19th).
Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be disallowed at the GM's discretion. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. inspire competence relies on audible components.
(Emphasis added to the bold italic part).
Since it's a wiki I guess I wouldn't be surprised if that's been superseded by more recent errata, but whomever the contributors to that one seem to be on the ball (kudos to them btw if any read this).
Edit: The same stipulation is in the Paizo online description of the class & ability, here.
*P.S. I didn't say the Bard couldn't benefit from his own Inspire Courage.
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Bards break adventuring parties.That is vastly divergent from the former poster... care to share why you think so?
Massive buff stacking capabilities.
The specifics were something about at 7th level dropping Good Hope as a standard, Inspire Courage as a move, and something else as a swift. Obscene bonuses to every party member.
You actually count as your own ally. So yes the bard can inspire his own courage. Been like that for a while now.A nicely built PF Bard can give the party boosts in and out of combat; a lot of people pooh-pooh the Bard's Inspire Competence because it can't help the Bard itself, but that contributes to making everyone else better.
Competence not Courage. Inspire Competence is the skill check boosting ability. And no, a bard can't inspire his own competence sadly.
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One reason way you don't see many party optimized builds is that they are difficult to pull off in practice. However when they do happen they tend to roll encounters like superman pushing a bulldozer.
Cavalier would also make my list of party booster classes. The ability to pass around teamwork feats can be rather helpful. Order of the Dragon also force multiples with a bard by bring both moral bonuses and his mount.
Will teach me to read things in a hurry. Read it as courage. Ah well.
I'm sorry but you have three master summoners and none of them can diversify their respective eidolons enough to cover all the skills when included with their summons? Whose playing these summoners? How hard do they need to be whacked with a newspaper?
Bards break adventuring parties.That is vastly divergent from the former poster... care to share why you think so?Massive buff stacking capabilities.
The specifics were something about at 7th level dropping Good Hope as a standard, Inspire Courage as a move, and something else as a swift. Obscene bonuses to every party member.
Haste with a lesser quicken rod is usually a good one :)
Total party supremacy though?
Half-Elven Summoner or Wild Caller
Half-Elven Master Summoner
Half-Elven Master Summoner
Elven Wizard (1 level of Crossblooded Sorcerer Orc/Dragon)
Elven Bard (1 level of Crossblooded Sorcerer Fey/Infernal)
A big powerful eidolon to lead the fight, hordes of summoned augmented creatures to benefit from buffs and both battlefield control and AoE damage to overwhelm foes that aren't simply torn apart. And people forget that at higher levels Summoners get Charm, Hold and Dominate Monster - as if they needed another way to be awesome.
No - characters are just pre-planned to completion.Is your GM planning supplmental materials and adventures? Because I ended my Rise of the Runelords campaign with my PCs at 15th or so level.I'll go with the party we're putting together for our upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 20
And, you really think all five will last for the entire campaign?
Frontline Fighter 2 - RAGELANCEPOUNCE antimagic Barbarian. H.
RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anymore per the FAQ.
The day they decide to give Bards 9th level spells I'll believe you.The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
Do most of your campaigns go long enough for you to utilize the true potential of a clerics 9th level casting? Because from what I see bards are better at rocket tag and have more skills.
What do you consider the relevant knowledge skills? What are the irrelevant ones!?
Arcane Caster: Tiefling Sorcerer (Sage/Primal Earth crossblooded) covers all the area damage, has all the relevant knowledge skills.
Well none of them are irrelevant... but the ones that come up the most are the ones that regard creatures:
The big five : Kn: Arcana/Dungeoneering/Nature/Planes/Religionand also Kn: Local
These ones are much more important to me than the others. Having all of them covered is a HUGE boon
Do most of your campaigns go long enough for you to utilize the true potential of a clerics 9th level casting? Because from what I see bards are better at rocket tag and have more skills.The day they decide to give Bards 9th level spells I'll believe you.The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
Better at rocket tag is subjective depending on the parties involved.
I was more referring to the idea that an Evangelist is a full divine spellcaster with all the potential that entails. Skills can be spread amongst the party as I mentioned with the 3 master summoner group above so while that's nifty that's hardly an edge without context.
But this is something of a derailment so I will go no further on this.
Do most of your campaigns go long enough for you to utilize the true potential of a clerics 9th level casting? Because from what I see bards are better at rocket tag and have more skills.The day they decide to give Bards 9th level spells I'll believe you.The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
Better at rocket tag is subjective depending on the parties involved.
I was more referring to the idea that an Evangelist is a full divine spellcaster with all the potential that entails. Skills can be spread amongst the party as I mentioned with the 3 master summoner group above so while that's nifty that's hardly an edge without context.
But this is something of a derailment so I will go no further on this.
Master Summoners can cover most skills except for knowledges, which bard a bard can cover all of them. Of course if you have a destruction heroism evangelist then it probably beats out the bard.
Master Summoners can cover most skills except for knowledges, which bard a bard can cover all of them. Of course if you have a destruction heroism evangelist then it probably beats out the bard.Do most of your campaigns go long enough for you to utilize the true potential of a clerics 9th level casting? Because from what I see bards are better at rocket tag and have more skills.The day they decide to give Bards 9th level spells I'll believe you.The only thing better than a bard is an Evangelist of Iomedae with the heroism domain.I would say they're on the same level of power, just for different reasons. Anyways, I agree that the bard makes a good party even greater.
Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Zen Archer, Archer Bard, Orc Bloodline Human Sorcerer.
That's how I would build my party.
Better at rocket tag is subjective depending on the parties involved.
I was more referring to the idea that an Evangelist is a full divine spellcaster with all the potential that entails. Skills can be spread amongst the party as I mentioned with the 3 master summoner group above so while that's nifty that's hardly an edge without context.
But this is something of a derailment so I will go no further on this.
Actually master summoners can cover those too.
People are just all too willing to forget there eidolons. Even at half strength nothing stops them from grabbing knowledge skills, feats, and evolutions that help them in that regard.
Soooo if Evangelist grabs religion, one master summoner grabs planes, another grabs arcana, another grabs nature, then one eidolon grabs local, another grabs nobility, and the last grabs dungeoneering. That's everything but geography and engineering which will probably never get rolled often enough for investment anyway. When you have that many characters who can take skills you can get quite a lot done.
Won't the eidolons suck at the knowledge skills from low int somewhat?
Skilled (Knowledge: whatever) costs one point and grants a +8 racial bonus. It takes a while for them to fall behind anyone not dumping absolutely tons of points into Int.
And arguably Bards are going to have the higher bonus for smaller investment. I'm just arguing against the need to switch out an already extremely strong group when you already have the elements there to make it strong.
Personally that's how I feel about most groups. The group that works together, covers its bases, and understands its own inner workings, and builds fro group benefit rather than individual power is miles above any super optimized group played by aloof loners.
Even more of a question, how is an eidolon going to communicate it's knowledge findings?
With words?
Even more of a question, how is an eidolon going to communicate it's knowledge findings?With words?
Or you could use that link ability which lets you give it mental commands anyway nothing stops it from being two way.
Even if you cant do that you can use one skill point. One. To solve the problem forever. This is not exactly a difficult conundrum.
And, you really think all five will last for the entire campaign?No - characters are just pre-planned to completion.Is your GM planning supplmental materials and adventures? Because I ended my Rise of the Runelords campaign with my PCs at 15th or so level.I'll go with the party we're putting together for our upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 20
That's the plan - the characters are well-built the players are very experienced. If someone should fall along the way we have a handful of back-up characters ready to go, also pre-planned from 1st to 20th.
Off the top of my head:
Half-Orc Barbarian (Urban Barbarian/Invulnerable Rager) 2 / Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline) 10 / Dragon Disciple 8
Elven Crossblooded Sorcerer (Fey & Infernal) 1 / Bard (Lotus Geisha) 7 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 2 / Arcane Archer 10
Half-Orc Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc & Draconic) 1 / Wizard (Evocation Admixture) 19
Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 1 / Wizard (Transmuter) 5 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Arcane Archer 4
Halfling Paladin (Holy Tactician) 10 / Summoner (Master Summoner) 10
Human Fighter (Unbreakable Fighter) 1 / Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 19
That not a single person mentioned an Order of the Dragon Cavalier surprises me. They get huge Aid Another bonuses and are very relevant in combat.
That not a single person mentioned an Order of the Dragon Cavalier surprises me. They get huge Aid Another bonuses and are very relevant in combat.
That's because cavaliers in general tend to be very campaign dependent so no single build can cover the bases universally. :(
BEyond that you are right Order of the Bro cavaliers are great.
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I'm building a tank (aldori swordlord) halfling fighter right now. Between Crane Style(+1), Steel Net(+2), Cautious Fighter(+2), acrobatics (+1), his fighting defensively has no attack penalty, gives him +8 AC, and his adjacent allies get +4 (because of Blundering Defense). Then with Bodyguard (and the helpful trait for halflings, which increases your aid another to +4 from +2), he can several times per round grant an adjacent ally another +4 AC vs. an attack.
His damage is very meh, but we're looking at someone who can hold the line and defend his allies effectively from physical threats.
For his party mate, I would add a Gulch Gunner, since with this much protection, the Gulch Gunner is in an ideal situation to regain grit every round (short races unite!)
Toss in an inquisitor or something, to have access to divine spells while being something of a beast in combat, and a wizard/(other arcanist, like witch?) and you have the most powerful spells for support.
Hell, he can even defend the familiar if the arcanist wants to use it to deliver touch spells.