Hi all, I have a question about the Abundant Step ability the Monk gains.
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.
If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.
My question is, if there is a huge flying monster, let's say an ancient dragon of some sort, can my monk Abundant Step up to the flying beastie and land on his back, kind of like riding it? Would I serve the party better by just aiming to be in the same spot as the dragon and shunting us both to the ground?
Thanks!
Maybe it was a bad idea, I just had a vision in my head that by landing on it's back I would be basically be riding it, and it's attacks would be limited to the appendages that could reach me, like it's tail and head. If it takes a 5 foot step and assuming I would be riding it, wouldn't I just go with it?
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Thanks again!
Under Abundant Steps' description it specifically calls out that it is a move action as opposed to a straight Dimension Door. This is why I was thinking I could use the Ride skill:
If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
And:
Special: If you are riding bareback, you take a –5 penalty on Ride checks.
And finally:
Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.
Stay in Saddle is a DC 5, with a -5 for an unwilling mount, and a -5 for bareback riding would combine to be a DC 15 Ride check. Kind of like if I got on the thing's back and it would start bucking or rolling or moving and I grabbed on to some scales to keep myself from falling off.
No, you have to take the dimensional agility feat tree to be able to do anything after you step.
Thanks again all. I think I'll leave it up to the GM, but as I keep looking I find that a lot of people tend to equate this supernatural ability as casting the spell dimension door and thus ending the turn.
Thanks again all. I think I'll leave it up to the GM, but as I keep looking I find that a lot of people tend to equate this supernatural ability as casting the spell dimension door and thus ending the turn.
Abundant Step says "as if using the spell dimension door," not "as if using the spell dimension door except you can still do things after." That there is a feat specifically designed to let you get around this restriction pretty much seals the deal.
The ability was nerfed by design.
You need the Dimensional Feats to get an action after the DD.
I like your Ride Arguement though.
I'd go for Grapple but Ride Skill has the added bonus of being humiliating. That's funny and funny will get you some leeway at my table.
As a GM I would give you a ride (or climb at -5) vs CMD to stay on it, move action to maintain, as at the cost of 1 hero point, god bless that system. But by RAW you simply fall to the ground.
Humbly,
Yawar
The ability was nerfed by design.
You need the Dimensional Feats to get an action after the DD.I like your Ride Arguement though.
I'd go for Grapple but Ride Skill has the added bonus of being humiliating. That's funny and funny will get you some leeway at my table.
Nerfed by design?
Buy some winged boots or punch the party arcanist until he casts fly on you. Or try to run away into a cavern or something where the dragon can't just do fly-by kiting runs with spells and breath weapon as you look on from far below helplessly. But seriously, the first sentence.
Thanks again!
Under Abundant Steps' description it specifically calls out that it is a move action as opposed to a straight Dimension Door.
All this means is that you can make a standard action before using AS, but since AS functions "as if using Dimension Door" your turn effectively ends immediately after the move.
This is why I was thinking I could use the Ride skill:
If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
That's the DC modifier for riding a creature that normally wouldn't make a good mount... Say... A kangaroo. It has nothing to do with the willingness of the creature to be ridden.
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Nerfed by design?The ability was nerfed by design.
You need the Dimensional Feats to get an action after the DD.I like your Ride Arguement though.
I'd go for Grapple but Ride Skill has the added bonus of being humiliating. That's funny and funny will get you some leeway at my table.
Yes.
Designed not to do what was suggested by the OP, despite that being one of the first things you want to do with the ability. Abundant Step always followed DD, and DD always left you sort of staggered (the end your turn bit) this was a deliberate handicap in the original monk design (I may be misremembering something, I haven't read cracked an AD&D RULEBOOK in years.). I vaguely remember reading that you could just short range teleport and go thermonuclear at one point but it was deemed too over the top (and that's by oldschool standards).
Abundant Step would be a devastating ability if it were it's own ability. It was modeled on Dimension Door as a nerf, not for simplicity. If it were not a turn ending action (despite being a move equivalent) it could prove to be a defining combo. We're over ten years from the 3.0 rewrite of the monk, and it's only now that there is a mechanic added to allow Ab. Step + Flurry and it's a heavy feat investment.
Maybe I'm using the term nerf wrong but every new player that reads the Abundant Step ability immediately envisions this scenario "I teleport over and hit him with a Quivering Palm" ,then I point out that no, it's not that good.
The ability was built with a limitation in.
It's still better than DD, but not outright awesome.
A decent application of Nerfium. Would some people prefer it worked otherwise? Sure, I'm one of them. Can I live with it as is? Yes.
That's nerfing, a stronger word is needed when a design just doesn't work ( Zen Archer +TWF).
I understand now.
The idea of the current monk going thermonuclear is would actually be quite funny if it wasn't so sad. This nerf just makes the ability filler material, because you cannot actually do anything with it that matters much.
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No?
I think the tactical applications are awesome.
Monk is engaged in combat with a creature. The rogue moves into position against a different creature, but doesn't have the speed to get into a flanking position. Monk uses Stunning Fist on his current foe, Abundant Steps across the battlefield (avoiding all AoO along the way), Rogue and Monk now flank the Rogue's target.
A lot of people look at an ability solely in terms of "what does it let me do?" when they need to consider "what does it let the party do?"
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Nerfed by design?The ability was nerfed by design.
You need the Dimensional Feats to get an action after the DD.I like your Ride Arguement though.
I'd go for Grapple but Ride Skill has the added bonus of being humiliating. That's funny and funny will get you some leeway at my table.
Yes.
Designed not to do what was suggested by the OP, despite that being one of the first things you want to do with the ability. Abundant Step always followed DD, and DD always left you sort of staggered (the end your turn bit) this was a deliberate handicap in the original monk design (I may be misremembering something, I haven't read cracked an AD&D RULEBOOK in years.). I vaguely remember reading that you could just short range teleport and go thermonuclear at one point but it was deemed too over the top (and that's by oldschool standards).
Abundant Step would be a devastating ability if it were it's own ability. It was modeled on Dimension Door as a nerf, not for simplicity. If it were not a turn ending action (despite being a move equivalent) it could prove to be a defining combo. We're over ten years from the 3.0 rewrite of the monk, and it's only now that there is a mechanic added to allow Ab. Step + Flurry and it's a heavy feat investment.
Maybe I'm using the term nerf wrong but every new player that reads the Abundant Step ability immediately envisions this scenario "I teleport over and hit him with a Quivering Palm" ,then I point out that no, it's not that good.
The ability was built with a limitation in.
It's still better than DD, but not outright awesome.
A decent application of Nerfium. Would some people prefer it worked otherwise? Sure, I'm one of them. Can I live with it as is? Yes.
That's nerfing, a stronger word is needed when a design just doesn't work ( Zen Archer +TWF).
Complete Warrior for 3.5 had it's own version. The Sun School feat chain. (linkage to a description) The "Flash of Sunset" Maneuver allowed the monk to use abundant step to get next to a target, and immediately make a single attack at their highest BaB vs that target.
No?
I think the tactical applications are awesome.
Monk is engaged in combat with a creature. The rogue moves into position against a different creature, but doesn't have the speed to get into a flanking position. Monk uses Stunning Fist on his current foe, Abundant Steps across the battlefield (avoiding all AoO along the way), Rogue and Monk now flank the Rogue's target.
A lot of people look at an ability solely in terms of "what does it let me do?" when they need to consider "what does it let the party do?"
Other than this example, not much. The problem is that if you arrive close enough to threaten something and divert it's attention, it also threatens you and has a full turn to act (unless you use a readied action, which takes you out of the previous round instead). You cannot take anyone else with you, and you cannot do much other than 'be there'. It has occasional uses, but it's nothing to write home about.
It was useful in the last session I played where this spellcaster kept summoning Outsider Chaotic Good creatures from the other end of a LONG hallway. The rest of the party weren't able to get to him, I was able to Abundant Step near him, and then grapple him (Fortunately the GM let me do it in the same turn, before we knew about Dimensional Agility). After he started losing spells the party was able to mop up the remaining summoned creatures.
Maybe if the ability had a level mod that stated something like at level 15 or 16 you gained the ability to act after using it. The Dimensional Agility (thanks to all who pointed that out to me) is only a 1 feat investment at level 12, at which point I was so focused on Grapple stuff that I really had no issue using a feat to gain this.
Although now that I know DD is supposed to stagger a person after using it, we could've called out the GM on it. The spellcaster was jumping all over the place and then summoning a ton of creatures.
Other than this example, not much. The problem is that if you arrive close enough to threaten something and divert it's attention, it also threatens you and has a full turn to act (unless you use a readied action, which takes you out of the previous round instead). You cannot take anyone else with you, and you cannot do much other than 'be there'. It has occasional uses, but it's nothing to write home about.No?
I think the tactical applications are awesome.
Monk is engaged in combat with a creature. The rogue moves into position against a different creature, but doesn't have the speed to get into a flanking position. Monk uses Stunning Fist on his current foe, Abundant Steps across the battlefield (avoiding all AoO along the way), Rogue and Monk now flank the Rogue's target.
A lot of people look at an ability solely in terms of "what does it let me do?" when they need to consider "what does it let the party do?"
Examples of occasional uses:
I once should have used it to get out of a grapple (3.5 game), but I forgot I had it and died next round (I got rezzed right after, but it was disappointing).
That same monk also used it a lot out of combat.
As a spell-like ability, would you have made the concentration check to use it while being grappled?
"A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be."
Yes. (unless I misred your question, which I may well have done, in which case... Depends on what he rolled).
Abundant Step is a Supernatural Ability, not Spell-Like.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See Table: Special Ability Types for a summary of the types of special abilities.
Table: Special Ability Types
Extraordinary Spell-Like Supernatural
Dispel No Yes No
Spell resistance No Yes No
Antimagic field No Yes Yes
Attack of opportunity No Yes NoDispel: Can dispel magic and similar spells dispel the effects of abilities of that type?
Spell Resistance: Does spell resistance protect a creature from these abilities?
Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability?
Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?
Kind of suggests it doesn't need a concentration check either...
Quick edit:
Although it's not spell-like and therefore shouldn't require concentration check, you can't move when you have the grappled condition.
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Quick edit:
Although it's not spell-like and therefore shouldn't require concentration check, you can't move when you have the grappled condition.
While you cannot move, nothing says that you cannot take a move action. Using D-door to escape a grapple is within rules as RAW (as long as you either do it via SU ability, or make the concentration check to cast while grappled).
Also, related, if you abundant step away from a threatened square, do you generate an AoO for the "movement" ?
Based on the table in the PRD it doesn't elicit an AoO if it's a Supernatural Ability. If I'm envisioning it right, the door opens in the same square you are in, so you would never "leave" the square until it opens in the desired square and you step out...Having said that though, if you are grappled wouldn't you need to break that grapple first in order to not bring the creature along? Or would it assume that the door opens only around you?
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Based on the table in the PRD it doesn't elicit an AoO if it's a Supernatural Ability. If I'm envisioning it right, the door opens in the same square you are in, so you would never "leave" the square until it opens in the desired square and you step out...Having said that though, if you are grappled wouldn't you need to break that grapple first in order to not bring the creature along? Or would it assume that the door opens only around you?
Nothing in the spell states that you have to "step" through, only that it instantly transfers you to the new location. (The Poof gone, poof appear effect)
From the spell, I guess that the grappler could claim to be a willing target and come with you, but otherwise they would be left behind..
From the spell:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels.
Good point, the Abundant Step ability can't take anyone so that answers that question.
I'd say that even if the creature you're grappling decides to be willing, it still wouldn't be taken along. The spell says "you may", which is a choice from the caster. If it said "you also bring...", then I'd agree that the grappler goes along.
I love the Wizard Teleportation subschool power Shift(su, swift action) for many of the same reasons.
Walk forward until he has line of sight, cast spell, and then shift out of sight.
Cast touch spell, walk forward, deliver touch spell, shift out of danger.
In a grapple? Shift out.
- Gauss
Actually, just last week I saw dimension door used very effectively by a cohort in my party (a blink dog, who has it at will). Things like "teleport on top of the tower where the crossbowman is. When he drops his crossbow to draw a sword, pick up the dropped crossbow and teleport away with it".