Disarming Strike + Butterfly's Sting interaction

[WalterGM]

Curious as to the nature of how these two feats interact. Does the bonus of getting to disarm when you score a critical hit with Disarming Strike get overwritten by the line in Butterfly's Sting where it states that you forgo the effect of the critical hit? I don't think the damage of the critical is important, all either requires to work is confirming a critical hit.

Frankly, I don't see why Butterfly woud negate Disarming, but I wanted to make sure my assuption was accurate.

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

I would consider "setting off Disarming Strike" to be a part of "the effect of the critical hit" that Butterfly Sting requires you to forgo, meaning that you wouldn't get it.

[WalterGM]

So then the true rules question is really a clarification:

"Does the 'effect' of a critical hit (as stated by Butterfly's Sting) limited to damage, or does it extend to other effects (like those granted by Disarming Strike)?"

[WalterGM]

I read over the parts again, including Critical Hits under combat. No where does it define what the effect of a critical hit is -- so we can assume it to mean double, triple, etc damage, as that is all that is listed under the critical hits heading in the combat section of the book. It does, however, have the terminology of scoring a critical hit: "when you make an attack roll and roll a natural 20, you have scored a critical threat..." So scoring a critical hit, then, means you confirm your critical and nothing more. No damage required -- only confirmation.

Since all that is required of Disarming Strike is that you score the crit, regardless of any damage done (or not done), I wouldn't see it interacting negatively with Butterfly's Sting. Furthermore, upon a close reading, Butterfly's Sting states that "you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit." Not effects -- effect. The only listed effect under critical hit in the combat section is increased damage. So you forgo that effect. Since the disarm attempt is an effect of disarming strike, I would argue that they can both apply.

But this is just one interpretation. Any others?

[james maissen]

WalterGM wrote:

But this is just one interpretation. Any others?

Well when I read Butterfly's sting further I read:

Quote:

Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.

Sounds like the attack only deals normal damage and not anything special by way of it being a critical.

I think you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

You give up it being a critical hit, while the ally gets it as one. The ally could benefit from disarming strike, but not you if you are giving up the critical to your ally.

The same would be true for item specials that activate on critical hits (flaming burst, etc) as well as class abilities, recharges, etc that might occur on criticals. Your hit is not a critical, but your ally's hit becomes one.

Seems both the letter and the spirit of the feat.

-James

[WalterGM]

I see your point James. Upon even further investigation into the line of critical feats (bleeding, etc), they all say "score a critical hit" and thus your argument is made. I don't think it'd be in the spirit of the rules to have two crits generate from one with Butterfly's Sting.

You can't get bleeding damage on a crit, and then give the crit to someone else. Just like you can't disarm someone on a crit, and then give the crit to someone else.

Ho hum.