The vestigal arm can't get you an extra attack, whether you put a sword in it or grow a claw from it.
The arm is not giving you an extra attack, the claw is.
unless the claw shoots out of the claw by its own volition that is base sophistry.
Ah this again while its never be weighed in on by a dev as far as i know check with your GM if this isn't for PFS if it is consider otherwise as until the Devs FAQ what constitutes an "Extra attack or action" then your gonna have massive table variation.
The vestigal arm can't get you an extra attack, whether you put a sword in it or grow a claw from it.The discovery specifically says you can put a weapon in it and fight with it like using two weapon fighting
Which raw means you can grow one and fight with a greatsword and shield, or grow two and be a dual greatsword wielding quizinart. But getting a third attack with a shortsword would be an extra attack, and thus not allowed under the rules.
RAI it wasn't even supposed to do the two greatswords thing.
@BNW It's not more extra attacks than if I chose to be a unarmed fighter with claws and made my attacks with kicks or headbutts and claws. I believe the extra attack line is meaning no more attacks than a similar investment would get a character.
At the same level (3) A unarmed TWF Fighter could cossack kick you twice then attack you with his claws (we will assume claws from race for ease of arguement.)
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If by these means that you can't place claws on vestigial arms to use them in a full attack, just wield a 2-hander in your vestigial arms, place claws on your regular arms, and get the toothy trait as a half orc. Now you have 3 natural attacks and a nasty 2-hander. Grab the feats power attack and multi-attack, go to town with the rest of your levels in barbarian to get pounce during a rage.
The other option is foot claws.
This is also a hotly debated theory that could recieve table varition
To clerify right off the bat this is what I'm shooting for.
I've lost my fondness for the synthesis summoner as it seems to be a be all win all at everything so I'm pulling this off Ragechemist/ Master Chemist Style.
Question is Vestigial Arm does not naturally grant you attacks. However can extra attacks be applied to it like limbs from eidolons?
So if I took The feral mutagen discovery and then the feral mutagen advanced mutagen could I apply them to the separate arms (since nothing in the ability says you can't take each of them)? Or take the lesser beast totem from the barbarian class?
take lesser fiend token get a gore attack
then refluff you bite gore claw claw to 4 x claw
with vestigal arms you can say your making 4 claw attacks but mechanically they're comming from other legal sources.
@BNW It's not more extra attacks than if I chose to be a unarmed fighter with claws and made my attacks with kicks or headbutts and claws. I believe the extra attack line is meaning no more attacks than a similar investment would get a character.
At the same level (3) A unarmed TWF Fighter could cossack kick you twice then attack you with his claws (we will assume claws from race for ease of arguement.)
No. unarmed is one attack unless you two weapon fight with it. You cannot simply declare your feet and head extra attacks and then make 5 unarmed attacks per round.
Thats why I said and unarmed TWF. He can make 4 attacks with twf and a pair of claws. If he also hand a bite it would be 5.
If an alchemist took feral mutagen and IUS he could have 3 attacks so adding in Vestigal arms and a Two-handed weapon and two claws hasn't given him any more attacks.
He can make 4 attacks with twf and a pair of claws. If he also hand a bite it would be 5.
If you normally have 4 attacks, and the hand makes 5 , then the hand is giving you 1 extra attack.
He can make 4 attacks with twf and a pair of claws. If he also had a bite it would be 5.If you normally have 4 attacks, and the hand makes 5 , then the hand is giving you 1 extra attack.
Bolded a fix in that should have said had a bite not hand a bite.
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All four hands are legal targets for abilities granting claws.
You have two sources granting you claws.
You choose to give claws to one set of hands, and give claws to the other.
So far we are disputably RAW.
Now, we full attack.
At what point does the vestigial arm disable a claw attack granted by these two separate sources? The arm discovery states it does not grant extra attacks, but it does not state it prevents attacks from other sources.
As far as I can tell, the "no extra attack" portion is letting you know the arm cannot be used for multiweapon fighting. Otherwise, all other uses are fine.
All four hands are legal targets for abilities granting claws.
You have two sources granting you claws.
You choose to give claws to one set of hands, and give claws to the other.So far we are disputably RAW.
Now, we full attack.
At what point does the vestigial arm disable a claw attack granted by these two separate sources? The arm discovery states it does not grant extra attacks, but it does not state it prevents attacks from other sources.
As far as I can tell, the "no extra attack" portion is letting you know the arm cannot be used for multiweapon fighting. Otherwise, all other uses are fine.
considering that devs have said that rules as intended vestigal arms were not even meant to allow using 2 2-handed weapons , the RAI is very clear , but always always your GM may play it another way
The RAI in this case is also really dumb. They're so afraid of alchemist getting a few extra natural attacks. The arms are already capped at 2, tentacle apparently at 1. Eidolons/synthesist can get FAR more natural attacks by level 20. They're just capped at 3 to start. Perhaps PF should have limited it by level like that if they were so concerned, instead of created really odd rules that cause you to grow fully functional arms that you can't actually fight with...
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So, the standpoint of naysayers is: you can grow all for claws, but cannot use them?
Attacking with natural weapons, is not multiweapon fighting, which the "no extra attack" line was put there to prevent.
How does it prevent claw attacks?
You can just as easily attack with two daggers, then two claws.
This too, is not "extra attacks" as you could do this just as easily with boot blades and claws.
Utilizing the claws is not an "extra attack" granted by the arm, it is an attack granted by a separate ability all together.
So, the standpoint of naysayers is: you can grow all for claws, but cannot use them?
Attacking with natural weapons, is not multiweapon fighting, which the "no extra attack" line was put there to prevent.How does it prevent claw attacks?
You can just as easily attack with two daggers, then two claws.
This too, is not "extra attacks" as you could do this just as easily with boot blades and claws.
Utilizing the claws is not an "extra attack" granted by the arm, it is an attack granted by a separate ability all together.
its not about logic :P
their intention was not to make vestigial arms a way to get another two full BAB attacks, regardless of the source.
besides alchemist is epic anyway doesn't need more :P
So, the vote is "just because".
As far as I am concerned, gaining a slam, or claw or other natural attack, is not something a class ability should suddenly deny, "just because".
put it this way if you can pull off extra natural attacks without the vestigial arms then its fine. the arms don't give you a way to gain an additional mechanical benefit for making attacks.
Consider this
100% of an alchemists melee damage comes from making bite claw claw.
is it reasonable that 2 feats worth of abilities increase the potential damage by 66% ?
Sure. The limbs don't come with their own natural weapons. But the OP was talking about 2 different discoveries that give you claw attack pairs, I think. So yes, you should be able to apply those to your vestigial arms. The arms aren't giving you more attacks, the discoveries are.
meh I just didn't think it that bad cause I was spending 3 discoveries and an advanced mutagen on this :P.
Sorry to have started such an uproar guys.
heh like I said mate your note going to get a definitive answer from us the only opinion that matters is your GM's.
maybe compare the damage you can do with this combo and without (spending those feats on other damage boosting abilities)