| Bunktavious |
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There's been lots of threads on how figments work and what you can and can't do with them. One thing I haven't seen discussed is how figments interact with light.
Take this as an example - outside, sun low in a clear sky. Everything is brightly lit on the sunny side and casting a long shadow on the opposite side. I create an illusion of a ten foot high pillar with silent image. If that pillar isn't casting a shadow, its going to immediately be obvious to anyone that its not real. So does it? Or do I create the shadow as part of my illusion?
Technically, the rules don't allow me to "create the shadow" as a shadow is not a creature, object, or force - rather, from a visual perspective, it is a darkening of the surface of whatever the shadow is cast on. Since you can't use an figment to change the appearance of something (darkening it), technically, you can't create a shadow.
Since the rules don't say that figments are useless in well lit situations, that suggests to me that illusions must interact with light as if they were real objects. If that interpretation is correct however, that would mean that if I put a silent image of a 20' cube around someone, it would be pitch black inside unless they had their own light source.
This has some fairly significant game implications. Can I create an illusion of a big umbrella above me to block out light and give myself partial concealment? If an illusion can block light, is that effect different based on whether or not a given creature disbelieves it, as illusions become transparent to those that make the save?
I'm leaning towards the opinion that illusions do block light, and that overall it's not that unbalancing. I just want other people's opinions on it before I take it to my current GM. I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to munchkin out a low level spell, just because it would have a big benefit for the character I'm playing (a Fetchling - 50% miss chance in low light).
| Lokie |
I'd say no. You'd need a spell that actually lowers the light level of the area such as Darkness. I'd think your racial ability responds to actual conditions and not what other might "perceive" as darkness.
Silent Image might give concealment from those effected by it. For example you could create a "bush" or "shrubbery" to hide behind or in. Unless the enemy knows the area they would most likely have no reason to suspect a bush is fake, even more so from a distance.
| Haladir |
Figments can provide 100% concealment, although they can't change the overall light level in an area.
For instance, you could cast silent image to cause a fake curtain to drop from the ceiling, behind which you can hide for full concealment. It won't change the light level behind the curtain, but those who don't disbelieve no longer have line of sight to you (but DO have line of effect).
| Bunktavious |
See, here is the where the question gets tricky. I'm not trying to use the figment to lower the light level of the area or to "create" darkness - I know it can't do that. The question is, if the area is lit by a single light source, and I put an opaque figment in front of that source, does it block light and therefore cast a shadow?
This matters, because if the figment can block light, then it create a "real" area of shadow - which matters when it comes to other things such as Tenebrous Spells, Shadow Jump, that sort of thing.
| Lokie |
See, here is the where the question gets tricky. I'm not trying to use the figment to lower the light level of the area or to "create" darkness - I know it can't do that. The question is, if the area is lit by a single light source, and I put an opaque figment in front of that source, does it block light and therefore cast a shadow?
This matters, because if the figment can block light, then it create a "real" area of shadow - which matters when it comes to other things such as Tenebrous Spells, Shadow Jump, that sort of thing.
I'm still going to have to say no. Creating a shadow is lowering the light level. Any "apparent" shadow would all be an effect of the illusion and not an actual change in light conditions. So no shadow jump or any of that sort of thing. Otherwise why have the Darkness spell at all?
| eakratz |
GM: Make a Will Save
Player 1: I rolled a 12 + 5 for 17.
Player 2: I rolled a 5 + 2 for 7.
GM: Player 1, you notice that the tree is not casting a shadow. It must be an illusion. Player 2, you notice nothing unusual.
Player 1 IC: "Lothark, I noticed that tree is not casting a shadow. See? It's an illusion."
Player 2 rolls again: 8 + 2 + 4 for 14.
Player 2 IC: "By Abadar's golden beard you're right!"
| Lokie |
Just glancing at a tree and noticing it doesn't cast a shadow, therefore getting a save, would be a considerable nerf of the spell compared to having to "interact" with it before getting a save.
Oh no... to those effected by the illusion it would "appear" to cast a shadow, but this would just be part of the illusion not an actual shadow.
The fact that the tree or shrubbery did not rustle in the breeze is already a big indicator that its not real. Seeing as how the illusion does not create sound.
| WRoy |
My issue with figments being incapable of modifying light levels is this:
How do you adjudicate a situation where an illusion is blocking line of sight to a light source? If the figment is incapable of modifying light levels, the illumination from the light source would carry through the figment to its normal range.
That's a huge limiter on using any sort of figment spell in any area not naturally lit, or one relying on directional light sources.
Lamplighter
|
Unless an illusion is disbelieved, it "appears" as a real object. To me, that means it casts (an illusion of) a shadow, just as as a real object would. If you successfully disbelieve the illusion, you also see the shadow is illusionary.
That also means tenebrous spells, etc. don't work because it's not a real shadow.
And yes, that's somewhat inconsistant with an illusion being able to provide concealment... but remember, we don't track light sources accurately in the game anyway.How many people cast light on their shield or helmet and ignore the glare effects and shadows?
| Lokie |
My issue with figments being incapable of modifying light levels is this:
How do you adjudicate a situation where an illusion is blocking line of sight to a light source? If the figment is incapable of modifying light levels, the illumination from the light source would carry through the figment to its normal range.
That's a huge limiter on using any sort of figment spell in any area not naturally lit, or one relying on directional light sources.
From the perspective of a DM, I'm saying that the 1st level spell Silent Image cannot modify light levels to create actual shadow. This would cause it to be more powerful than the second level spell Darkness.
It can "appear" to alter light levels for those who do not make a save vs. the spell. I'd say trying to block a light source would cause all in the area of the light source to get a save vs. the illusion automatically.
| Lemmy |
What about this:
You want to create and illusion of a chest over an wooden floor.
You go and create the image of the chest. And then, you realize it's lacking a proper shadown on the floor.
If you can create shadows, no problem, done. If you can't, you instead create the illusion of an identical floor, only slightly darker, and place it directly above the real floor, where the chesy would be casting its shadow.
Ta-daaa!
If the players bring their light source (such as a lantern or a shield under effect of the Light spell)it counts as interacting with the illusion, therefore, they get their saving throws.